Hazing Works!

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by lauradav
I'd like to know why you think hazing works. What does reciting the greek alphabet while holding a burning match teach someone about sisterhood, brotherhood or tradition? What does swiming blindfolded with your hands tied behind your back in the middle of the night in the ocean teach you about how to be a leader and a good member? Does the death or near death of a pledge cause a pledge close to become closer to one another? Probably, but it doesn't teach them anything about how people like to be treated, the history of our organizations or the role they play in the future of the Greek community.

Yes, there are some activities that are hazing under the definition b/c you have too go a little to far in what you prohibit to prevent people getting around the rules, but hazing is illegal for a reason. There are a lot of organizations in our community that have built up very successful new member programs that do not include hazing and are still turning out members who care about their organizations, know their history and want to play a role in their future.

Well said!

[pinkyphimu]

well, maybe hazing in the extreme sense doesn't work (with which i whole-heartedly agree), but perhaps the current definition of hazing doesn't work either. maybe the current definition was made as a knee-jerk reaction to all of the extreme hazing that has caused people to die and to law suits. is there some in between?

i joined my chapter because it was the only one on my campus that didn't haze. i will never befriend anyone who has mistreated me. we had a marshmallow roast and movie nights, and phi meetings where we learned things, such as the greek alphabet and the creed. as phis, we were supposed to wear our pledge pins during waking hours, unless we were showering (or on our way to the shower), at a party, during sports practices or any time it was inappropriate (an off campus job, etc). i thought that was fine! some pledges (and that is what all of the other chapters called their new members) had to put their pin on their robes when they were in the shower...how silly. if i forgot to wear my pin, it was no big deal. if women in the other sororities forgot their's they would get bigger pins to "teach them a lesson." that is a perfect example of how a small thing can be turned into something harmful. one minute you are showing pride of being in an organization....and the next minute you are being embarassed in public.

so how do we improve the definition so that it still allows you to learn about your org, show pride in the group, and become friends with the people in your chapter? perhaps educating existing members on how to develop nm programs that focus on positive behaviors, how quickly things can be taken from good to bad, and how to set limits with chapter members to ensure that no one takes things past the limits. the new members should receive education (preferably not from a chapter member, maybe as a part of rush orientation or from alums) that there are certain things that are expected as a member of a greek organization....showing pride by wearing your pin, learning history, etc and that there are lines that will not be crossed by current members, but that nms are expected to do their part, too.

[KappaKittyCat]

I agree wholeheartedly with Pinkyphimu and Lauradav. Most of the organizations that have created new education programs have tried to incorporate just those things that you both called for: sharing of positive experiences, simultaneous group bonding and integration into the chapter, education, and team building. Keep in mind that most of these programs are relatively new (in comparison with the ages of our organizations) and be patient with the ones that may seem to go a bit overboard in your eyes. Give it ten or fifteen years and many of the kinks will be worked out. I'm a product of a Kappa's new New Member Program, and it really does work.

BTW, does everybody know the Greek Alphabet Song? I just taught it to my chapter on Sunday and it's a great (quick) way to learn the Greek Alphabet while not holding a burning match.

[bruinaphi]

Originally posted by 33girl
Maybe hazing is illegal, but the definition of hazing is way too broad for it to be taken seriously.

Take other crimes like murder, theft, fraud. You have a set of what each crime entails that pretty much everyone agrees on. For instance, premeditated murder- you plan to kill someone, you carry out those actions, and they are dead. That's premeditated murder. (Don't start on first, second, third degree etc) The average Joe can be selected for a jury and understand that.

Now you get to the definition of hazing. Some people feel it only includes physical abuse. Some people feel it includes calling someone a pledge or asking them to interview active members. Some are in the middle. I don't think we are ever going to have an effective Greek system OVERALL until we come to a clear definition (not the Granny's-nightshirt-covers-everything definition of the FIPG) of what hazing really IS. I know that there are alums (myself included) who are very offended when activities they participated in willingly and joyfully are labeled hazing.

I think that this is true of almost all statutory crimes. Look at the difference b/w murder and domestic violence crimes. Spousal abuse is a perfect example of a crime that is really difficult for juries, just like hazing is. Hate crimes are another example. Are they really any different than the common law crimes from which they stem -- aren't we really convicting these people for assault & battery or murder? In the civil setting, aren't we holding them liable for assault & batter or IIED? All that really happens with the creation of statutory crimes and torts is that we create new classifications for age old torts and crimes that people have been debating the definition of for ages.

As leaders in GLOs it is our job to educate our membership to promote our ideals without stepping over those boundaries. We all know it is possible, the challenge is to teach why it is important to work at it and succeed rather than taking the easy way out and hazing.

[Rudey]

Here is what we decided to do when we had to pledge each new class: We sat down and wrote what qualities we wanted our new class to have or to add on to. Then we looked for ways to build all those qualities up. We never gave bids to jackasses that need a kick to do anything, so we knew each of our pledges was fully capable and would represent our letters well.

When I look at hazing I think of three things:
1) The sad fact that brothers are taking enjoyment in giving these pledges crap work and putting them through hell.
2) The pledges are being broken down and built back up. This is what they do in boot camp when they push you until you accept every order and start fitting their mold. I guess this is what people think makes a class "tight".
3) When the pledges sacrifice more for something, they feel their reward is even more deserved and valued. Those letters represent something grand to them.

In our pledge class, kids did each activity. The point of each activity is made clear from the beginning so everyone goes in looking to achieve the same goals. When there were problems, we talked to them. For example, if I saw a kid not wearing his pin I would fume up but I would tell him why it was so important to wear that pin. I would make him know that and from then on he became the model pledge.

I'm sorry but hazing is the easy way out. You can achieve the results you want without breaking someone down.

-Rudey
--Just do a search on the internet for trust building and teamwork exercises.

[MoxieGrrl]

I've stated before that my chapter doesn't haze, and I'll say it again......my chapter doesn't haze.

But.......

Let's take the example of the often rumored "Circle the Fat" sorority activity. (For those who may not have heard about this, pledges are in revealing clothes and actives cirle the fat on their body.) So, all of the pledges have to do this activity. It is humiliating, degrading, and downright uncomfortable. However, I can see where this activity could build group cohesion. 1. You are not the only one this is being done to. The rest of your pledge class has the same thing happening to them. You all hate it. You rally together for emotional support to get you through it. 2. You know all of the actives went through it to. Also group cohesiveness. Though they might not say it, one can image they felt similar to what you are feeling during this pledge activity. 3. It would be extremely embarassing to have outside people to know that this happened. Whether it is for the fact of it happened, you got a lot of circles, or you could get in trouble for it. It creates a secret. That whole "we did something you don't know about" deal. It's XYZ against everyone else.

I do not condone such an activity. But I can see that "creating a secret" would bond people to one another. (Was that ok objectiveness, James? )

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum (in part)
I don't think the military is a very valid comparison. Yes, both GLOs and the military want tight, cohesive groups. But a GLO is not about life and death like the military is! The military may train you by dropping you in the middle of nowhere. That really could happen in actual service. I sure hope that doesn't actually happen in the course of a GLO's regular activities, though. In a GLO, you really shouldn't be killing your enemy, defending your own life, or dodging literal bullets.

Actually, I think it may be a very apt comparison. Bear with me a minute -- I'm thinking out loud (or on the keyboard).

There has been a lot of talking in this thread about bonding, and I think that is very important. But there is an equally important component that I think has not been addressed; at least if it has, I missed it. That second component is rite of passage.

American society as a whole is woefully bereft of rites of passages, particularly for boys: rites that mark the transition from boyhood to manhood. For many young men, fraternities (I am going to talk mainly about fraternities here; I'll try not to go too Robert Bly ) and fraternity initiations provide such a rite. Indeed, the pledge manuals of many fraternities speak of initiation in terms of a rite of passage.

Globally, rites of passage in less "civilized" societies typically involve what might be termed testing, trial, or ordeal. That is, prior to actual initiation into manhood, the initiate must prove himself and his worth (to himself and to the men he wishes to join) by undergoing and passing one or more trials or tests. To be quite honest, I think there is something inbred in males wanting and needing to prove themselves in this way. Rituals (and here I am using the term broadly) that succeed for boys understand this and tap into this primal need. An example: initiation into the Order of the Arrow, a sort of camping brotherhood for Boy Scouts, is preceeded by a weekend-long "Ordeal" that involves no talking, manual labor (with others, which can be challenging with no talking), camping alone in the woods, meager meals, and the like. Upon completion, a boy feels like he has really accomplished something, proven himself and earned the right to be initiated.

Quite simply I think, where hazing "succeeds" (if that is the right word), it is when it taps into this primal desire to be tested and proved worthy, which in turn engenders loyalty to the group one has been found worthy to join.

How does the military comparison fit in? True, fraternity brothers are not about "life and death" in the same way as the military, but in a real sense fraternity brothers are about life and death. We talk in term of lifetime brotherhood, of helping and even protecting each other. When potential initiates go through "testing" together and help each other get through it, then they learn that they can count on each other no matter what.

So, to answer James's question, I think what makes hazing "work" (again, if that is the right word) is that it satisfies the need to be tested and proven worthy, and that in the process it teaches potential initiates to rely on each other and help each other in overcoming any trials. The challenge for fraternities today is to figure out how to accomplish these same goals in a way that isn't hazing.

My $0.02.

[leftfootin]

The thing with hazing is that 100% of the chapter has to decide whether they are going to haze or not. If you are going to haze then fine, its fun, but dont go crazy and dont get caught (nationals and campus' dont mess around). If you aren't going to haze then you should have some kind of dues that pledges have to pay, i.e. a high mandatory GPA, or no public drinking, or pledges have to do all community service work, etc.... You get the drift. Its just like raising a child, you and spouse have to decide whether to spank the kid or not, but punishment has to be given. You cant just let a pledge in to your fraternity and have the same rights and privileges as the actives in the fraternity. Well thats my 2 cents.

p.s. tough love always works