AOII Eliminates Legacy Policy

[shadokat]

carnation, thank you for saying a lot of what I've been thinking. My thought process on this whole thing is that if a chapter REALLY wants a certain woman or women, no matter what the legacy policy is, they'll find a way to get her. I was on a reddit forum and DG was RAVING about how amazing it is that they eliminated the policy to provide an equal chance for everyone to be able to join. I'm sorry, but stop the nonsense. Removal of that policy will not allow everyone to join. EVER!

If NPC groups want diversity, they need to work with college campuses to create a climate that supports diversity, PERIOD!

[knight_shadow]

I obviously have no dog in this fight, as I'm not in an NPC organization, but this:

Originally Posted by shadokat

if a chapter REALLY wants a certain woman or women, no matter what the legacy policy is, they'll find a way to get her.

stood out. If the legacy is great and everyone wants her and she'll be brought in anyway, why does the official policy change matter? You still get the PNM you want.

A lot of what I read in here sounds like an aversion to change rather than the signaling of impending doom (again, outsider's perspective). That said - if one of your few benefits as an alumna is the ability to bring in legacies, maybe there should be another conversation about more alumna benefits?

In my (much newer and smaller) organization, we are getting our first few rounds of legacies and even though we are "new enough to have room" so to speak, the "obligation" for bringing in legacies is more the exception than the rule. If someone is a legacy and his father cares *that* much, he's likely been around that chapter and has plans to attend the associated university, so it's a natural fit vs a checklist. If there was a change in policy about this, I can't imagine that my personal fraternal experience will be affected in any way.

[carnation]

The policy change matters because in almost all the NPCs, a legacy who comes to prefs is put on the first bid list. It would be really crappy to ask a legacy back all the way to prefs and then not give her a bid.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Cookiez17

So on the idea of introducing not just IFC/NPC orgs to people rushing, they did this at my old school during recruitment. The multicultural orgs would be there for the first night or two and then an individual would reach out if they had interest.

Sadly when someone asked "Oh what orgs are we visiting today?" a rho gamma stated that XYZ fraternity wasn't going to be there that night and I heard a "thank god" from a guy in the back .

On the other hand if a school has a Meet the Greeks sort of thing they usually will have all of the organizations show up and then the multicultural/NPHC orgs would usually do a stroll/step they had prepared, which would get the room extremely excited, including myself.

And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I obviously have no dog in this fight, as I'm not in an NPC organization, but this:



stood out. If the legacy is great and everyone wants her and she'll be brought in anyway, why does the official policy change matter? You still get the PNM you want.

A lot of what I read in here sounds like an aversion to change rather than the signaling of impending doom (again, outsider's perspective). That said - if one of your few benefits as an alumna is the ability to bring in legacies, maybe there should be another conversation about more alumna benefits?

In my (much newer and smaller) organization, we are getting our first few rounds of legacies and even though we are "new enough to have room" so to speak, the "obligation" for bringing in legacies is more the exception than the rule. If someone is a legacy and his father cares *that* much, he's likely been around that chapter and has plans to attend the associated university, so it's a natural fit vs a checklist. If there was a change in policy about this, I can't imagine that my personal fraternal experience will be affected in any way.

Spot on, as usual.

[Cookiez17]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.

Well for recruitment which basically served as rush they only gave an informational telling the history of their org and explaining to the PNMs what NPHC orgs are as a whole. The Meet The Greeks was a greek wide event and PNMs could go but it was only optional for those signing up for recruitment.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by carnation

The policy change matters because in almost all the NPCs, a legacy who comes to prefs is put on the first bid list. It would be really crappy to ask a legacy back all the way to prefs and then not give her a bid.

I don't know all of the terminology for your different rounds. Is pref the last round before bids are given out? If so, if she makes it that far and doesn't make the cut, doesn't that mean that there are others who the chapter thought would be a better fit than her? Are you saying it's better to fit a round peg into a square hole because of who her mother is?

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.

Yea, that might be the first step in inclusion - invite folks over for more than dancing LOL

[carnation]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I don't know all of the terminology for your different rounds. Is pref the last round before bids are given out? If so, if she makes it that far and doesn't make the cut, doesn't that mean that there are others who the chapter thought would be a better fit than her? Are you saying it's better to fit a round peg into a square hole because of who her mother is?

No. If the girl is a bad fit, she's unlikely to make it past early rounds. If she is a good fit, she is likely to go much further. Round pegs won't be making it into square holes at this point, it'll be square pegs and square holes.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I obviously have no dog in this fight, as I'm not in an NPC organization, but this:



stood out. If the legacy is great and everyone wants her and she'll be brought in anyway, why does the official policy change matter? You still get the PNM you want.

A lot of what I read in here sounds like an aversion to change rather than the signaling of impending doom (again, outsider's perspective). That said - if one of your few benefits as an alumna is the ability to bring in legacies, maybe there should be another conversation about more alumna benefits?

In my (much newer and smaller) organization, we are getting our first few rounds of legacies and even though we are "new enough to have room" so to speak, the "obligation" for bringing in legacies is more the exception than the rule. If someone is a legacy and his father cares *that* much, he's likely been around that chapter and has plans to attend the associated university, so it's a natural fit vs a checklist. If there was a change in policy about this, I can't imagine that my personal fraternal experience will be affected in any way.

In a way, I have no dog in the fight because all 9 daughters are grown. But...your alum benefits and ours (and your organization and mine) are obviously not the same and please don't tell us what they should be like. There's really nothing else our organizations can do for us besides this.

Change in itself is NOT the issue. This legacy policy doesn't have a thing to do with diversity and is unlikely to affect anyone except faithful alums who have given years of service and money to their GLOs and now it won't count. I don't blame them for backing out.

[Cookiez17]

So on the idea of introducing not just IFC/NPC orgs to people rushing, they did this at my old school during recruitment. The multicultural orgs would be there for the first night or two and then an individual would reach out if they had interest.

Sadly when someone asked "Oh what orgs are we visiting today?" a rho gamma stated that XYZ fraternity wasn't going to be there that night and I heard a "thank god" from a guy in the back .

On the other hand if a school has a Meet the Greeks sort of thing they usually will have all of the organizations show up and then the multicultural/NPHC orgs would usually do a stroll/step they had prepared, which would get the room extremely excited, including myself.

[knight_shadow]

Got it. I figured there might be an MS situation where we couldn't get into the weeds.

Thanks for the context.

[PersistentDST]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.

Right, the last thing we need is to be the evenings entertainment.




I understand that I don’t have a horse in the race and my organization does not have special legacy policies, so I don’t have an opinion either way.

But, please let me know if I’m wrong. I’m trying to understand:

The nature of recruitment is the mutual selection and the importance of “fit” in a chapter, right? So naturally, there will always be legacies who will not end up in their legacy chapter(s), based on fit or numbers, but there will be plenty that do, because the chapter wanted them and they wanted the chapter. I’m assuming in the past the legacies was put on the top of the bid list after Pref, even if the chapter loved other PNM’s more.

So all this is to ask (and again, I’m just trying to understand) if a chapter loves a PNM, regardless of her legacy status, isn’t that who they would ultimately want on the top of their bid list? If the legacy is a great fit, it seems like she would be extended a bid either way. Shouldn’t the individual chapters be able to make those choices?

[carnation]

If the chapter loves the legacy PNM, they know that they better love her a lot because she will be on the top of that list.

[Sororitysock]

Originally Posted by PersistentDST

Right, the last thing we need is to be the evenings entertainment.




I understand that I don’t have a horse in the race and my organization does not have special legacy policies, so I don’t have an opinion either way.

But, please let me know if I’m wrong. I’m trying to understand:

The nature of recruitment is the mutual selection and the importance of “fit” in a chapter, right? So naturally, there will always be legacies who will not end up in their legacy chapter(s), based on fit or numbers, but there will be plenty that do, because the chapter wanted them and they wanted the chapter. I’m assuming in the past the legacies was put on the top of the bid list after Pref, even if the chapter loved other PNM’s more.

So all this is to ask (and again, I’m just trying to understand) if a chapter loves a PNM, regardless of her legacy status, isn’t that who they would ultimately want on the top of their bid list? If the legacy is a great fit, it seems like she would be extended a bid either way. Shouldn’t the individual chapters be able to make those choices?

If a chapter is doing recruitment right, they believe every one of the women coming to their preference parties will be a good fit and they love them. Now, comparably there may be objective differences between two PNMs, it it's not like they're going to have a bunch of 2.5 GPA PNMs when their minimum GPA is a 3.3. So not all PNMs are created equal and legacy status is one of those things that under most policies would give a woman an extra advantage, just like, for instance, a 4.0 GPA may add an extra advantage to a PNM for a super academically oriented chapters.

[PersistentDST]

Originally Posted by Sororitysock

If a chapter is doing recruitment right, they believe every one of the women coming to their preference parties will be a good fit and they love them. Now, comparably there may be objective differences between two PNMs, it it's not like they're going to have a bunch of 2.5 GPA PNMs when their minimum GPA is a 3.3. So not all PNMs are created equal and legacy status is one of those things that under most policies would give a woman an extra advantage, just like, for instance, a 4.0 GPA may add an extra advantage to a PNM for a super academically oriented chapters.

Gotcha, so basically, each PNM would have to be 100% judged on her own merits (grades, recs, fit, etc.).

I could see why there’s disappointment, because many ladies want their daughters/granddaughters/sisters to be their legacies. But I’m sure if the PNM is a fit for the legacy chapter, the policy change shouldn’t be an issue for them either way. Seems like if it’s about each PNM finding their home to have their own experience, legacy or not, they will.

Unless I’m understanding this all wrong. Bless your hearts, because recruitment seems complicated!

[carnation]

It would seem that way but it's a kick in the teeth for moms who want to pin their daughters.

I think it's easier for legacies to pledge their moms' sororities in the NPHC. Today while out walking, I saw our Delta neighbor and I told her about all this and asked her what she would have done if she had pursued Delta (her mom's group too) for years and never been accepted. She looked confused and said that that never would've happened. She called her mother over and asked her if she'd ever heard of that happening to legacies in the local chapter. Her mother said, "No, not even with the girls who were odd as long as they did the correct work they needed to beforehand." (Ha! Mom is blunt. I can imagine the chapter conversations about someone's weird daughter.)

Two other ways the NPHC and the NPC differ: y'all have 4 sororities and we have 26. We have quotas and you don't (neither do NIC fraternities that I know of). Quotas, put in place so that some groups don't take all the top girls and leave other groups to waste away, are part of the reason that we can't pledge all legacies.