A member stomps on the American flag....what do you do?

[CutiePie2000]

Originally posted by damasa
This certain brother has had a history of problems and violence in our fraternity. This is the latest issue in his outspoken hatred of our country (or so it seems). Earlier this year he had a confrontation with one of our African-American members and he proceeded to use racial slurs. He was suspended at that time. Now this happens. He has been in trouble before that, at one point threatening a girl in a sorority on campus which almost brought our fraternity into a legal battle (luckily all charges were dropped).

Damasa,
He sounds like a serious trouble-maker and I do think he will continue to cause grief for you guys later on down the line.
Past behavior is a pretty good indication of future behavior, and he sure has been consistent in the past....(and I don't mean that in a good way). He has serious anger managment problems and he is a big liability. Threatening a girl on campus and using racial slurs against a fellow member -- he sounds like a loose cannon to me. I think it is time to boot him...not because of the flag ruining, but because he is someone who has serious behavior problems that show no sign of letting up.

As for the "Be your brother's brother, not your brother's keeper" comment, there is a limit and I think he crossed it a long time ago. He is an adult and therefore responsible for his actions. You're in college and your first priority is to get an education, not expend your energy and get stressed out trying to mop up behind this volatile, unbalanced guy and do damage control on behalf of your fraternity! I think to be "Your brother's brother"...your only obligation is for the fraternity to try to find out what is going on with his life, and to direct him to the help that he needs. If he doesn't want to help himself, well, you have done all that you can, and I think you can absolve yourself of any further responsibility.

Based on what I have read though, I feel that he has to go.

[CutiePie2000]

Originally posted by CutiePie2000
The only country that can hold a candle to our countries is Australia, and that's only because the weather is so fantastic!

Originally posted by starang21
is it really that nice?

Yes. Australia is wonderful.
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread....

[Optimist Prime]

Austrailia? Whatever. I like New Zealand, because hey, where exactly is Old Zealand?

[Blackwatch]

If I saw someone stomping the flagg! I would....

APPLAUD!!!!!!

and maybe join him!!!!
Blackwatch!!!!!!!

[Kevin]

While I wouldn't advocate kicking him out over this the argument of "free speech" I don't think is valid in this case.

So far as criminal prosecution... no that wouldn't go very far.

So far as your standards board... we are private entities recieving no government funding. The requirments for membership and what we ask of our members as far as moral code, etc is completely up to us. Free speech does not apply here.

For me the fact that he did it in the house makes it a little more pallatable than if he did the same act out in public. He just needs a little counseling/education on SOCIAL SKILLS.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Optimist Prime
I like New Zealand, because hey, where exactly is Old Zealand?

Zealand (in Dutch, Zeeland) is a province of the Netherlands.

[damasa]

Originally posted by Rudey


What you and others seem to think is that just because someone has the privilege to free speech that others should sit there and take it. It might be free speech but his brothers have the right to judge him based on it, the fraternity's national office has a right to evaluate whether the chapter represents their ideals, and potential members have the option of choosing whether to join...all parties exercising their freedoms with a reaction to the original expression.

-Rudey

Exactly the point that I was trying to get at, if it seemed to come out as cloudy, I apologize. I wanted to hold back on the politics involved because there are a few people (who go to my school) that frequent these boards and I didn't want to air too much.

What it comes down to is this:
Although what this brother demonstrated is free speech and expression, he did it with a flag owned by the fraternity. He did it inside of the fraternity house in front of active members and almost the entire pledge/new member class (which I left out earlier).

We have had three new members drop because of this single incident and another considering to drop. That's almost 25% of the pledge class (in a time when we are trying to rebuild ourselves and continue on down a new path - nationalization).

I had a talk with one of the guys who dropped and he said he felt threatend by the incident and that he didn't feel safe being in the fraternity house or around that member and the other one that he fought with. He said he also didn't understand if what he saw was an expression of the fraternity as a whole or as a member acting alone. I told him that it wasn't a fraternal view, rather, the member speaking on behalf of himself.

I often hear the argument of "you represent yourself and your Fraternity?Sorority in many instances/places." Well, this is kind of what happened and we lost new members because of it, good guys that I truly think could have done a lot for the chapter. That in itself should be enough for expulsion, on top of the other offensive actions this brother has taken. I love him as a brother, but he has put a serious bind on us right now and he has done it in the past. Whether it is a racial issue, a free speech issue, etc., I feel that it was "the straw."

After hearing how we lost new members because of it, what do you think should be done, what would your chapter do?

***Keep in mind I am not the kind of person to want to see one of my brothers kicked out, but I personally don't know what else could be accomplished by placing him on yet another suspension***

There is always a breaking point...in every situation.

Blaine

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by Blackwatch
If I saw someone stomping the flagg! I would....

APPLAUD!!!!!!

and maybe join him!!!!
Blackwatch!!!!!!!

Wow, your existance must really suck if you're harboring such negative feelings. I hope you are able to get your life on track.

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by Blackwatch
If I saw someone stomping the flagg! I would....

APPLAUD!!!!!!

and maybe join him!!!!
Blackwatch!!!!!!!

Don't be an A.B.M! Turn that frown upside down and put on a happy face!

[dekeguy]

Let me review the bidding here.
This guy, who is a French National, has given sufficient previous grief that he has been the subject of suspension, desecrates the US flag, causes three nubies to de-pledge, and is a source of continuing turmoil in the house ...
This is a put-on, right?

Now, if by chance this is on the level, several things occur to me but one is focal. Sometimes, there is a difference between that which is legal and that which is honorable. If the facts are now fully presented then this person would appear to have acted thoroughly dishonorably. For a French National, and let us take into consideration French notions of honor, to have acted in such a manner is provocation of the sort of gravity that our founding fathers would have answered with "an invitation to breakfast" which is an old fashioned way of saying "pistols for two, coffee for one".

I am a bit dismayed and disappointed by the hand wringing appeals to political correctness. This is such an extreme example of continuing ungentlemanly conduct that I really do have doubts that the story is on the level. If it is I would have to conclude that this one should never have received a bid, should have been weeded out during pledgeship, and has no business in the company of gentlemen (of which I assume your house is composed).

As an OBTW, if he is a French National he is here on a visa of some sort. Odd way for a guest to act. The rules of hospitality require rather a lot of patience on the part of the hosts, but from what you describe it sounds as though a consultation with the INS might be in order.

As to Blackwatch, you have chosen the name of a very fine Scottish Regiment, but if you want to "applaud and join in" I would not do so in front of any member of HM's 42nd. Regiment of Foot (The Blackwatch). They tend to be unconcerned about the finer points of political correctness and have an old fashioned attitude towards respect and personal conduct.

As to myself, if you as an American Citizen entitled to the constitutional protections which I swore to uphold when I was commissioned, want to exercise your rights of freedom of expression, so be it - with the understanding that I reserve the right to express myself as well. Perhaps we should discuss this over "breakfast"?

[Peaches-n-Cream]

His behavior was offensive enough to cause three perhaps four pledges to quit and has caused turmoil in your fraternity. All I have to say is, "Don't let the door hit you in your flag stomping ass on the way out!" He is more trouble than he is worth. When one's flaws outweigh one's contributions, it is time to say goodbye.

Where is the brotherhood on his part?

[Blackwatch]

The moniker of "Blackwatch" is not an homage to a sect in the gang..um I mean the Scottish regiment that seems to have an old fashioned attitude towards "political correctness". You say this as if I only have rights that you allow me to have, and that my humanity and dignity are only protected by the will of some army or something, and that at that army's will, my rights can (and in this instance should) be taken away. The term 'blackwatch' that I use refers to a very fine regiment of African and African American freedom fighters who watch for the protection of Black peoples all around the world. With a battle cry of "Freedom or Death, we shall not be moved!!!" The International Blackwatch Movement seeks to "black boot stomp" the sense of self hatred felt in the black community due to being mired in the mud of the "pig's parlor" that is the United States. Listen, even the Constitution with its Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independeance state that these truths are self evident that every man has rights given to him BY GOD, not by some oppressive, militaristic, hypocrytical, self-righteous, self serving, greedy, power hungary state that seeks power over human dignity and oil over peace. One question, if justice is of God, and the foreign policies of the U.S. have proven to be unjust, why automatically assume that the U.S. is 'righteous' in its dealings with this 'war on terrorism'? Sending people over there to die because we were on the wrong side 10 years ago. How can Ben Laden be a good guy during the cold war, and now he is evil? Think about it. My freedom isn't protected by some oppressive, greedy government, but by an all powerful, all knowing, and ever present GOD! So Dekeguy, we can have "breakfast" as you state, but do not think that I have any reason to fear any sect of any gang because when my rights are protected by GOD, whom shall I fear? Can YOU handle the TRUTH?

Blackwatch!!!!!!

[Rudey]

Awww, sounds like someone is feeling unloved.

-Rudey
--If I pay you 50 bucks, can you boot stomp my security deposit out of my old landlord?

Originally posted by Blackwatch
The moniker of "Blackwatch" is not an homage to a sect in the gang..um I mean the Scottish regiment that seems to have an old fashioned attitude towards "political correctness". You say this as if I only have rights that you allow me to have, and that my humanity and dignity are only protected by the will of some army or something, and that at that army's will, my rights can (and in this instance should) be taken away. The term 'blackwatch' that I use refers to a very fine regiment of African and African American freedom fighters who watch for the protection of Black peoples all around the world. With a battle cry of "Freedom or Death, we shall not be moved!!!" The International Blackwatch Movement seeks to "black boot stomp" the sense of self hatred felt in the black community due to being mired in the mud of the "pig's parlor" that is the United States. Listen, even the Constitution with its Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independeance state that these truths are self evident that every man has rights given to him BY GOD, not by some oppressive, militaristic, hypocrytical, self-righteous, self serving, greedy, power hungary state that seeks power over human dignity and oil over peace. One question, if justice is of God, and the foreign policies of the U.S. have proven to be unjust, why automatically assume that the U.S. is 'righteous' in its dealings with this 'war on terrorism'? Sending people over there to die because we were on the wrong side 10 years ago. How can Ben Laden be a good guy during the cold war, and now he is evil? Think about it. My freedom isn't protected by some oppressive, greedy government, but by an all powerful, all knowing, and ever present GOD! So Dekeguy, we can have "breakfast" as you state, but do not think that I have any reason to fear any sect of any gang because when my rights are protected by GOD, whom shall I fear? Can YOU handle the TRUTH?

Blackwatch!!!!!!

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by Blackwatch
The moniker of "Blackwatch" is not an homage to a sect in the gang..um I mean the Scottish regiment that seems to have an old fashioned attitude towards "political correctness". You say this as if I only have rights that you allow me to have, and that my humanity and dignity are only protected by the will of some army or something, and that at that army's will, my rights can (and in this instance should) be taken away. The term 'blackwatch' that I use refers to a very fine regiment of African and African American freedom fighters who watch for the protection of Black peoples all around the world. With a battle cry of "Freedom or Death, we shall not be moved!!!" The International Blackwatch Movement seeks to "black boot stomp" the sense of self hatred felt in the black community due to being mired in the mud of the "pig's parlor" that is the United States. Listen, even the Constitution with its Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independeance state that these truths are self evident that every man has rights given to him BY GOD, not by some oppressive, militaristic, hypocrytical, self-righteous, self serving, greedy, power hungary state that seeks power over human dignity and oil over peace. One question, if justice is of God, and the foreign policies of the U.S. have proven to be unjust, why automatically assume that the U.S. is 'righteous' in its dealings with this 'war on terrorism'? Sending people over there to die because we were on the wrong side 10 years ago. How can Ben Laden be a good guy during the cold war, and now he is evil? Think about it. My freedom isn't protected by some oppressive, greedy government, but by an all powerful, all knowing, and ever present GOD! So Dekeguy, we can have "breakfast" as you state, but do not think that I have any reason to fear any sect of any gang because when my rights are protected by GOD, whom shall I fear? Can YOU handle the TRUTH?

Blackwatch!!!!!!

YAY!! This was a great post!!

And KillearnyRose, someone MUST be miserable if they do not agree with American policy right? I mean, how HORRIBLE to think that there are flaws in the U.S. of A. Yes, it is cause for anguish. But you know what they say...the truth HURTS, so I guess I will have to deal.

In regards to the actual topic, actually I agree that the guy should be kicked out, based on the followup posts about his prior history. But the flag stomping seems to be only the climax to his behavior. As far as the hypothetical scenario of a member stomping on a generic American flag, I would not think that someone's expression of a political view would be cause to kick them out of their org. Surely not from people who are SO vocally touting the importance of diversity?

Actually the "freedoms" that we are "allowed" state that stomping on, spitting on, or using the flag as a cape to fly out the window, is legal. So is anyone in here prepared to face the consequences of their OWN highly prized consititution if they kick someone out for expressing a government given right?

Bottom line..."patriots" who find fault in people expressing their opinions (even if it is a dissenting one) are hypocrites. How can you love this country "unconditionally," yet attempt to stifle the very notion of "freedom" that this nation was founded upon?

[Rudey]

Once again there are freedoms of expression which he has and freedoms of expression which others have to react and make their own judgments. I'm sure a person as open-minded as you wouldn't want to stifle anyone's freedoms.

-Rudey
--Just wear a peasant skirt

Originally posted by librasoul22


YAY!! This was a great post!!

And KillearnyRose, someone MUST be miserable if they do not agree with American policy right? I mean, how HORRIBLE to think that there are flaws in the U.S. of A. Yes, it is cause for anguish. But you know what they say...the truth HURTS, so I guess I will have to deal.

In regards to the actual topic, actually I agree that the guy should be kicked out, based on the followup posts about his prior history. But the flag stomping seems to be only the climax to his behavior. As far as the hypothetical scenario of a member stomping on a generic American flag, I would not think that someone's expression of a political view would be cause to kick them out of their org. Surely not from people who are SO vocally touting the importance of diversity?

Actually the "freedoms" that we are "allowed" state that stomping on, spitting on, or using the flag as a cape to fly out the window, is legal. So is anyone in here prepared to face the consequences of their OWN highly prized consititution if they kick someone out for expressing a government given right?

Bottom line..."patriots" who find fault in people expressing their opinions (even if it is a dissenting one) are hypocrites. How can you love this country "unconditionally," yet attempt to stifle the very notion of "freedom" that this nation was founded upon?