well, I have been given the duty... - Page 3

SigmaChiCard · #31 08-09-2002, 06:34 PM

My only problem really with abortion is the emptiness and the likely self-hatred the woman would likely feel years down the road

valkyrie · #32 08-09-2002, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaChiCard
My only problem really with abortion is the emptiness and the likely self-hatred the woman would likely feel years down the road

I'm bothered by what you've said, and I'm not exactly sure why.

I don't think you can assume that a woman would likely feel emptiness and self-hatred as a result of having an abortion. Maybe the emptiness and self hatred would be worse if she carried and gave birth to a kid she didn't want and the consequences that may result from that. If she is making the best decision for herself in the situation, than I don't think she would end up feeling that way years later.

Also, your statement assumes that it's all on the woman -- would the man responsible for the pregnancy feel emptiness and self hatred as well? I'm guessing you would say "no" to that.

And if a woman does end up feeling bad about it later, well, that's her feeling to have, but it's not a reason to prevent her from making a choice. That falls along the lines of saying that women are delicate flowers and that we as members of society need to make laws to protect them from themselves. This is why waiting periods for abortion make me so mad -- I get steamed when anyone advocates a law that a woman must take 24 or 48 (or whatever) hours after visiting an abortion clinic before she can have an abortion. What, do you think she hasn't thought about it already? You think she needs for someone to tell her that???

I'm not necessarily implying that that's what you were saying, but your statement just got me thinking, that's all.

librasoul22 · #33 08-09-2002, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaChiCard
My only problem really with abortion is the emptiness and the likely self-hatred the woman would likely feel years down the road

SO true. This is one of the reasons why I am against abortion. A close friend of mine had one herself (NOT extinuating circumstances), and it was HARD to be around her afterward.

Rudey · #34 08-09-2002, 06:56 PM

Silly you, women are delicate flowers! That's why wet t-shirt contests are so good for them.

-Rudey
--The water helps women grow.

Quote:

Originally posted by valkyrie

I'm bothered by what you've said, and I'm not exactly sure why.

I don't think you can assume that a woman would likely feel emptiness and self-hatred as a result of having an abortion. Maybe the emptiness and self hatred would be worse if she carried and gave birth to a kid she didn't want and the consequences that may result from that. If she is making the best decision for herself in the situation, than I don't think she would end up feeling that way years later.

Also, your statement assumes that it's all on the woman -- would the man responsible for the pregnancy feel emptiness and self hatred as well? I'm guessing you would say "no" to that.

And if a woman does end up feeling bad about it later, well, that's her feeling to have, but it's not a reason to prevent her from making a choice. That falls along the lines of saying that women are delicate flowers and that we as members of society need to make laws to protect them from themselves. This is why waiting periods for abortion make me so mad -- I get steamed when anyone advocates a law that a woman must take 24 or 48 (or whatever) hours after visiting an abortion clinic before she can have an abortion. What, do you think she hasn't thought about it already? You think she needs for someone to tell her that???

I'm not necessarily implying that that's what you were saying, but your statement just got me thinking, that's all.

librasoul22 · #35 08-09-2002, 06:58 PM

Okay...quick poll...

Rather than ask a question that is WAY too personal, I will ask how many people actually KNOW someone who has had an abortion?

texas*princess · #36 08-09-2002, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bcdphie
In most circumstances I am pro-choice. I feel I have no right to interfer in someone else's life and decisions, especially if I know nothing about them. The only case where I believe abortion is wrong is when people use it as a method of birth control instead of using condoms, the pill or any of the other choices that are out there.

I COMPLETELY agree!

valkyrie · #37 08-09-2002, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by librasoul22
Okay...quick poll...

Rather than ask a question that is WAY too personal, I will ask how many people actually KNOW someone who has had an abortion?

Well, a very good friend of mine from college (we no longer speak, but for other reasons) had three abortions (yes, three). I went with her to the first one, to be supportive, and I think that I was more freaked out about it than she was, and remember sitting there in the waiting room reading the information about the procedure and it scared the living crap out of me (I am deathly afraid of medical procedures). I am thankful to say that I have never been in a position to have to make such a decision -- I actually think that *I* learned more from her experience than she did.

Other than that, I would guess that there are women I know now who have had an abortion, and I don't know about it. I'm sure we all know someone who has, whether we know it or not.

DWAlphaGam · #38 08-09-2002, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by librasoul22
Okay...quick poll...

Rather than ask a question that is WAY too personal, I will ask how many people actually KNOW someone who has had an abortion?

Yes, I do know a few women who have had abortions. They all had very tough times deciding whether or not to go through with it, but at least they had options to consider. They each went into the procedure knowing that it was best for them and for their future families that they not be saddled with an unwanted baby at that point in their lives.

On a more personal note, I do know people who made the decision to keep their unplanned children even though it drastically changed their lives at a very young age. My mother was one of them; she was 16 when she had me. I know it was an extremely difficult choice for her and I know she considered aborting me, but I'm glad that she was able to decide for herself whether or not she wanted to have me. At least that way, I have never felt like she regretted me or like I was a mistake; if she had been forced into it, my life could have turned out very differently. My mom is definitely my hero.

Katey Alpha Gam · #39 08-09-2002, 09:13 PM

This is one thing that I have VERY strong beliefs about. I am pro-choice. I think it's ridiculous for anyone to tell anyone else what to do with their lives or their body. It's up to that woman and whoever else is involved to deal with it. Why bring a child into a bad situation or even one where it might not have been wanted??? Let ppl make their own decisions for their life and the life of the potential child.

My best friend had an abortion 2 years ago and was perfectly fine emotionally and mentally after it

dzrose93 · #40 08-10-2002, 12:36 AM

To answer librasoul's question...

Many of my close friends have had abortions. Right offhand, I can think of seven.

juniorgrrl · #41 08-10-2002, 12:58 AM

I once heard someone say "My rights end where yours begin." This is the crux of the abortion matter.

It all depends on if you see the fetus as tissue or a baby. If you choose the former, then it would seem that "no one has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body." However, if you ascribe to the latter philosophy, then it is murder. A mother is choosing to kill her offspring, for whatever reason.

That said, I am pro-Life. Why? Because I believe that the unborn child is a life from the moment of conception. Many people will choose to argue "if it can't live outside the mother than its not a baby." However, even after a child is born, it cannot live without assistance from someone, something.

I don't see birth control failing as an excuse for an abortion. If a woman chooses to have sex, even with birth control, she knows that pregnancy is still a possible outcome, a consequence of the choice.

Abortion is a selfish act; its the antethisis of motherhood, which is selflessness. And when it all comes down to it, the purpose of women is to be mothers. I don't mean barefoot and pregnant, 18 kids with one on the way...I mean the biological purpose of the female gender is to carry a child to further the human race. It makes me very sad to see many women killing another person, a part of themselves.

SATX*APhi · #42 08-10-2002, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by juniorgrrl
I once heard someone say "My rights end where yours begin." This is the crux of the abortion matter.

It all depends on if you see the fetus as tissue or a baby. If you choose the former, then it would seem that "no one has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body." However, if you ascribe to the latter philosophy, then it is murder. A mother is choosing to kill her offspring, for whatever reason.

That said, I am pro-Life. Why? Because I believe that the unborn child is a life from the moment of conception. Many people will choose to argue "if it can't live outside the mother than its not a baby." However, even after a child is born, it cannot live without assistance from someone, something.

I don't see birth control failing as an excuse for an abortion. If a woman chooses to have sex, even with birth control, she knows that pregnancy is still a possible outcome, a consequence of the choice.

Abortion is a selfish act; its the antethisis of motherhood, which is selflessness. And when it all comes down to it, the purpose of women is to be mothers. I don't mean barefoot and pregnant, 18 kids with one on the way...I mean the biological purpose of the female gender is to carry a child to further the human race. It makes me very sad to see many women killing another person, a part of themselves.

DITTO!!!! My thoughts and feelings EXACTLY!!

KSig RC · #43 08-10-2002, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by librasoul22
Okay...quick poll...

Rather than ask a question that is WAY too personal, I will ask how many people actually KNOW someone who has had an abortion?

I know two girls who have had abortions, and one guy who was involved in one (girlfriend had an abortion, not like he performed it).

KSig RC · #44 08-10-2002, 01:48 AM

For argument's sake . . .

Quote:

Originally posted by juniorgrrl
It all depends on if you see the fetus as tissue or a baby.

"It" meaning "would I support an abortion for myself" . . . to my mind, at least.

Quote:

Originally posted by juniorgrrl
If you choose the former, then it would seem that "no one has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body." However, if you ascribe to the latter philosophy, then it is murder. A mother is choosing to kill her offspring, for whatever reason.

Somewhat simplistic, but this lays out the pro-life/pro-choice stances perfectly I think.

Quote:

Originally posted by juniorgrrl
That said, I am pro-Life. Why? Because I believe that the unborn child is a life from the moment of conception. Many people will choose to argue "if it can't live outside the mother than its not a baby." However, even after a child is born, it cannot live without assistance from someone, something.

First - Why? (in terms of 'life from moment of conception') That is, how do you (legally speaking) define "life"? I don't think it's possible.

I can only see justification with the 'soul' argument, which isn't a good basis for law.

Also - Quite honestly, it's far different from when the baby is outside the mother, in terms of support - look at the physiology of the thing. The baby quite literally leaches oxygen, nutrients, enzymes and etc from the mother, and relies on the mother to remove wastes and etc. This is different than relying on the mother (after birth) for feeding, to me, b/c the woman's body is only being used in a mechanical (ie bringing the bowl of cheerios) sense. I don't mean to be clinically cold here, but the fact of the matter is that the baby isn't recognizable as a human for months, doesn't have a heartbeat at conception, and all those other bizarre facts we hear - but instead relies on the mother to carry on the processes of life.

I don't necessarily know how to define 'life' in terms of when it begins, but that's exactly my point - if we're discussing feelings about abortion, it's perfectly understandable to be against it - for you and your child. However, making a constitutional law regarding this would require a values-based decision on when life begins - and that doesn't fly for me. That's why I'm pro-choice in a legal sense, as it were - let's let everyone make that decision for themselves, keep the government out of it, and then if you don't like it you don't have to do it - you can stay within your moral boundaries, and so can those who don't necessarily agree.

Quote:

Originally posted by juniorgrrl
I don't see birth control failing as an excuse for an abortion. If a woman chooses to have sex, even with birth control, she knows that pregnancy is still a possible outcome, a consequence of the choice.

True - but that still doesn't sway me to remove the option for people. No one needs an 'excuse', to my mind.

Quote:

Originally posted by juniorgrrl
Abortion is a selfish act; its the antethisis of motherhood, which is selflessness. And when it all comes down to it, the purpose of women is to be mothers. I don't mean barefoot and pregnant, 18 kids with one on the way...I mean the biological purpose of the female gender is to carry a child to further the human race. It makes me very sad to see many women killing another person, a part of themselves.

OK - but altruism (again) isn't a great basis for constitutional law. Besides, you beg the question here when you assume that the baby is a life - while your reasoning makes sense if you assume that as a basis, but not everyone accepts the appeal to an anonymous authority.

Besides, your argument about woman (biologically) being intended to produce offspring is easily extensible to a total removal of fidelity requirements of the male, since the biological basis of male evolution has been to promote seeding as often and easily aas possible . . . but I digress.

I'm just saying that I see why you feel the way you do, and I 'get it' - but I don't think we can extend that to everyone. Making a law from that point of view doesn't seem to be feasible, to me - but again, I'm not a constitutional scholar.

shultzz · #45 08-10-2002, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by librasoul22
Okay...quick poll...

Rather than ask a question that is WAY too personal, I will ask how many people actually KNOW someone who has had an abortion?

I have never had one.