Men and Committment

[AKA2D '91]

That reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with my cousin. We were discussing her sister. At the time, her sister had been married ONCE, divorced AND married AGAIN.

Being the person that I am, I said "dayuuuummmmm, she's been married and divorced and married again and I haven't been married ONCE." LMAO. Her sister (also single) said, "well, you could be married too if you want to be married to ANY and EVERYTHING out there."

(If that's what it takes...nawwwww I'll pass.)

Shortage of men? Being real here: I think there is a shortage of men who meet certain qualifications that women are looking for.

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by sphinxpoet
How and why is marriage and divorce the only benchmarks that we have when measuring commitment? Is that why society puts such an emphisis on getting married? Do sisters really think there is a shortage of men or just there is a shortage of men that can deal with you and your specific issues? Just a question or 2?

Sphinxpoet

Libra, this makes me think of Jazzyfatnastees track 4. "Don't need no house, no picket fence, to show the world that we connect. Don't need no church, no diamond ring, to show the world... unlasting thing (i forget, lol)" I use this to say, marriage is not the end all be all of commitment. I want someone who is committed to me and my well being and growth: physically, mentally, and emotionally. I don't need marriage to prove to me a commitment, that's just a small piece of it. When I think of commitment, I also think of willingness. You are willing to work thru all the BS for the betterment of BOTH parties involved, to make each person and the relationship stronger. Why is it so easy to commit and work hard for an employer but not for a mate? It should be just the opposite. Commitment is important, ESPECIALLY physically. I am sharing the most intimate part of myself with you... and you are sharing yours with whoever? Times have changed, and that's too dangerous. Commitment means supporting each other and being each other's cheerleader!! Marriage is not commitment... there are a ton of married folk who are not committed to each other. Commitment to me is, I am here for you, down for whatever, ALWAYS. Ring or no ring, marriage or no marriage.

I believe that there is a shortage of men who can tell the truth and be monogamous. Not that they are all womanizers, just that they are weak when it comes to turning down the pannies. Men view things differently from us, I think. Didn't you hear what Jay-Z said? LOL! But seriously, I do think that it will be hard to find a man who will be able to handle me, specifically. I am not easy to take. I am loud, I'm smart, I'm not takin' your isht, I have motivation and drive, I look good, I have a lot of friends, I'm very emotional and cry a lot, I will cuss you out in a minute, my family is ghetto, I suffer from depression, I've been told I'm intimidating, and I don't trust men as far as I can lift them in the air. So yeah, I got issues, but like my fuchababyfavah, Musiq, said, "Hey, I got issues, you got issues, we all got issues."

It's time to eat, so I gotta go.

[TLAW]

But seriously, I do think that it will be hard to find a man who will be able to handle me, specifically. I am not easy to take. I am loud, I'm smart, I'm not takin' your isht

Loud and smart? For real?!!!! Nah!!!!!!!!!

Alright, just kidding. On the real, you are hardly different than the average black woman today.

[lovele1978]

I agree that commitment is more than marriage, and if you don't have that FIRST then that marriage is doomed. I am lucky and happy to say that I have been in a committed relationship for two years with someone I was friends with for five years prior to that. A lot of people keep asking us when we are going to get married, but to tell you the truth that is not the first thing on our agenda. With all the time that we have known each other we are still getting to KNOW each other (if that makes any sense) . Sure I would love to spend the rest of my life with him, but if I am going to take that step I need to be 200% sure!

I have also gone through the discouraged phase of my life, and the ladies who are still there, are for good reason. While there may be some good men out there (i.e. well mannered, good job, educated, etc.), some of them are still missing that component to make a relationship work. And I know a lot of women who will stay in a relationship based on that basic criteria, and just accept all the other bull$#@& that may come along as well.

I think Ashanti said it best in "Foolish"......"All the things that we accept, be the things that we regret ".

[Koss28]

I'm not scared of committment. I just haven't found a decent woman yet. It's kinda hard to believe in a city the size of Houston but it seems like women my age are into game playing and being playettes themselves. I'm 28, have a good job and go to church pretty regularly. One woman I thought would work out got pregnant by some fool, the second thought she had it made dating some 19 year old just entering college and the third one wants her to throw away everything she believes in and do as he says. I thought she would have dropped him for that but she's thinking about it so oh well, time to move on.

[TLAW]

Tell em Koss! Tell 'em!

[librasoul22]

Sorry Koss and TLAW, 2 men out of how many? are not enough to convince me...

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by librasoul22
Sorry Koss and TLAW, 2 men out of how many? are not enough to convince me...

I'm not even looking to be convinced. I have faith that good men exist, because I know God wouldn't do me like that. We all have a different reality. What did you say in one of your posts, TLAW, you've already done your childish stuff? Koss, I guess the same applies to you? However, we are up against 'men' who are STILL being childish boys. The trick of it is reading thru the game. THAT is the thing right there. See, you could be just as genuine as you please with these women. If any of them have had experiences even similar to mine, they will still think it's game. And I've had male friends tell me, well, just give it time. Well, I did that last time, and what? I am afraid of having the wool pulled over my eyes. That's what frightens me. Trust issues.. trust issues. So for that reason, until that issue is removed from me, I don't want to be convinced about what men are out there or whatever, because I'm just not ready for him, yet.

[Koss28]

Originally posted by librasoul22
Sorry Koss and TLAW, 2 men out of how many? are not enough to convince me...

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It's a two way street. At least in Houston it seems like the women are as bad as the guys and the good women don't trust the good guys and vice versa or they make obvious bad choices. Like thos one woman I know. She has known this guy for 10 years and she's pissed off at all these things he does yet instead of finding someone that fits more of what she's looking for, she decides to give him another chance and she's praying and meditating that he'll chance. Man, this cat hasn't changed in 10 years!!! What makes you think he'll change this time? You're wasting your time.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by Koss28



I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It's a two way street. At least in Houston it seems like the women are as bad as the guys and the good women don't trust the good guys and vice versa or they make obvious bad choices. Like thos one woman I know. She has known this guy for 10 years and she's pissed off at all these things he does yet instead of finding someone that fits more of what she's looking for, she decides to give him another chance and she's praying and meditating that he'll chance. Man, this cat hasn't changed in 10 years!!! What makes you think he'll change this time? You're wasting your time.

First off...I didn't mean that I wasn't convinced that there are not good men. I meant that the fact that the two of you are good men does not sway me toward commitment, which is what this thread is about. Sorry about the miscommunication.

As far as your experiences go..does this mean that the 4 women (Nina Simone) you know have clouded your judgment? Have you globalized their actions to include the entire populice of women? Hmmm...this whole globalizing thing has given me deja vu...

If you check my very first post, I said that women are just as guilty as men, and that I am tired of women always trying to blame the guys. So I am not sure what point you are trying to prove with me...

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by Koss28
What makes you think he'll change this time? You're wasting your time.

See, you (and she) think she's holding on because she thinks he'll change. WRONG! She's holding on probably because 1) she has invested a decade in his sorry behind, and it sucks to feel like you've wasted all that time for nothing, 2) she doesn't want to be alone, or 3) she doesn't want to have to start all over in the game (especially after listening to the issues your girls are having).

These are the stupid things that some of us do, and we rationalize them. She probably thinks that every man is gonna be like him anyway, but there are many things about him that she loves, he's probably trained sexually and maybe socially (not that we train yall :halo:, lol), and she's not willing to let go of the GOOD in him. She's not willing to let go of the GOOD memories.

Your theory suggests that people don't change. See, we know that people do, because God changes people. Where women make mistakes is that instead of LEAVING him and allowing the two of you to GROW SEPARATELY, we want to grow together, and that's impossible. Because what we really hate is putting in all that work, then we get fed up, break up, the mofo changes, and goes and gets another woman. After all our hard work, lol. This is how we think, ok. And not all of us, and not necessarily me. And then, like Ashanti said, we regret all the stuff. Not to mention, we see the potential in a man that he can't see in himself. We are nurturers by nature, and of course, we want to bring out that potential. That's why she's praying, that's why we stay for so long. We want to be there to see your light shine, to let us know that all the BS was worth it.

See, I think a lot about this. You also have to take into account what type of relationships people see growing up. You tend to end up wanting (or accepting) what you've seen. Maybe she comes from a family where the women are in relationships for years with no commitment. You just never really know.

I'm not saying she's not wasting her time, I'm just trying to give you a little insight, just like you're doing with us.

[Koss28]

Ok, that's cool Libra. Not trying to prove anything, just throwing my $1.99 in. No, my view of women is not colored at all. Just sucks that committment is becoming an outdated term in society.

[Shelacious]

Is there any wonder we are in a quandry regarding relationships? In reading both this thread as well as the other started by Aspire, this is what I see. You may not agree with any of this, I don’t even agree with all of it myself per se, but it’s simply food for thought:

-Very few people seem to have a clear understanding of what constitutes a successful relationship. Is the most important aspect love, respect, commonality, understanding? Do all these elements have to be place or best of two out of three? What is love, anyway? Do we overestimate its power and its place in a life-long relationship?

-Men and women appear to have both been painted into major corners that prohibit the nature progression of relationships. Men expect women to bring their “A” game, including all the things listed by Aspire PLUS sex and intimacy. Women expect men to bring THEIR “A” game, including the highest earning potential they can muster. None of us can possibly ever bring our “A” game, however, because we are all a work in progress. We can only bring the best game we have at the time. Have we been too influenced by the videos, novels, movies and television, which tell us the ideal relationship, and really the only one worth having, must include the perfect balance of the mind, body and soul? That if a person brings baggage, issues, personality flaws in a relationship that it’s best to keep searching, because there’s someone out there for us who has almost everything we’re looking for? Influenced by those who tell us that if we no longer love our mate and/or if we are no longer “happy,” then that signals the end of the relationship?

-The expectation and inclusion of sex has created an unfair balance in relationships. Used to be, a guy respected a woman for not “giving in.” He in fact only wanted to marry a woman who was reluctant to “give in.” While that may still be the case to some extent, most guys in “my” unscientific field poll did NOT think they would be willing to wait to be married to have sex with a woman they thought was “the one.” Generally it seems that women have accepted this fact. It used to be that guys were willing to wait for the “good girl” because there was a clear line between “bad girls” and “good girls.” That line is no longer so clear. There are plenty of shrill, nagging, unsupportive women who are celibate (either have always been or are now) and a bunch of top-self quality women a guy would take home to mamma who are not. In other words, why would they take a chance with Ms. Celibate if there are a bunch of dime pieces who bring what she does PLUS? For things to go back to the way they were in our parents’ days, the dime pieces and top-notch chicks would need to all keep their legs closed and the eyes on the prize—doesn’t look like that’s going to happen anytime soon. As the article pointed out, men have traditionally gotten married in part to guarantee instant sex on demand—remove that barrier, and what do you have…?

-We want all the I’s dotted and the T’s crossed before we “jump” into marriage. After all, isn’t that why the divorce rate is over 50%, and 25% of the rest are in terrible marriages? Or is it? Is getting to know someone for five years and living with them for two more any better a recipe for a successful union than dating someone exclusively for a year and then getting engaged? How can we ever be sure that “someone” is “THE ONE?” How can you “ever” be totally “ready” to be married, especially when we’re never really “ready” for other life-altering experiences?

-Looking for “love” in all the wrong places? Are we unsuccessful because we are barking up the wrong trees? Are the folks we are usually “attracted to” not really the folks we should be looking to for a lifelong pairing? Do we need to start looking for love in different packages than we thought they “should” come in? Do we select men/women over and over with the similar traits, that spelled disaster previously or better yet, do WE bring the same traits over and over into a relationship yet each time we expect different results?

Again, just some food for thought.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by Shelacious
Is there any wonder we are in a quandry regarding relationships? In reading both this thread as well as the other started by Aspire, this is what I see. You may not agree with any of this, I don’t even agree with all of it myself per se, but it’s simply food for thought:

-Very few people seem to have a clear understanding of what constitutes a successful relationship. Is the most important aspect love, respect, commonality, understanding? Do all these elements have to be place or best of two out of three? What is love, anyway? Do we overestimate its power and its place in a life-long relationship?

-Men and women appear to have both been painted into major corners that prohibit the nature progression of relationships. Men expect women to bring their “A” game, including all the things listed by Aspire PLUS sex and intimacy. Women expect men to bring THEIR “A” game, including the highest earning potential they can muster. None of us can possibly ever bring our “A” game, however, because we are all a work in progress. We can only bring the best game we have at the time. Have we been too influenced by the videos, novels, movies and television, which tell us the ideal relationship, and really the only one worth having, must include the perfect balance of the mind, body and soul? That if a person brings baggage, issues, personality flaws in a relationship that it’s best to keep searching, because there’s someone out there for us who has almost everything we’re looking for? Influenced by those who tell us that if we no longer love our mate and/or if we are no longer “happy,” then that signals the end of the relationship?

-The expectation and inclusion of sex has created an unfair balance in relationships. Used to be, a guy respected a woman for not “giving in.” He in fact only wanted to marry a woman who was reluctant to “give in.” While that may still be the case to some extent, most guys in “my” unscientific field poll did NOT think they would be willing to wait to be married to have sex with a woman they thought was “the one.” Generally it seems that women have accepted this fact. It used to be that guys were willing to wait for the “good girl” because there was a clear line between “bad girls” and “good girls.” That line is no longer so clear. There are plenty of shrill, nagging, unsupportive women who are celibate (either have always been or are now) and a bunch of top-self quality women a guy would take home to mamma who are not. In other words, why would they take a chance with Ms. Celibate if there are a bunch of dime pieces who bring what she does PLUS? For things to go back to the way they were in our parents’ days, the dime pieces and top-notch chicks would need to all keep their legs closed and the eyes on the prize—doesn’t look like that’s going to happen anytime soon. As the article pointed out, men have traditionally gotten married in part to guarantee instant sex on demand—remove that barrier, and what do you have…?

-We want all the I’s dotted and the T’s crossed before we “jump” into marriage. After all, isn’t that why the divorce rate is over 50%, and 25% of the rest are in terrible marriages? Or is it? Is getting to know someone for five years and living with them for two more any better a recipe for a successful union than dating someone exclusively for a year and then getting engaged? How can we ever be sure that “someone” is “THE ONE?” How can you “ever” be totally “ready” to be married, especially when we’re never really “ready” for other life-altering experiences?

-Looking for “love” in all the wrong places? Are we unsuccessful because we are barking up the wrong trees? Are the folks we are usually “attracted to” not really the folks we should be looking to for a lifelong pairing? Do we need to start looking for love in different packages than we thought they “should” come in? Do we select men/women over and over with the similar traits, that spelled disaster previously or better yet, do WE bring the same traits over and over into a relationship yet each time we expect different results?

Again, just some food for thought.

OMG...This is quite possibly the best post EVER!

[TLAW]

Shelacious, I am gonna step out on a very unpopular limb and agree with you, especially about the intimacy issue you raised. I await the downpour...
Like you said, it's not gonna happen soon.