prejudice in fraternities and sororities

[James]

LMAO . . . TKEmz894, tell us what you really think, don't hold back man .

But seriously, the poor guy answered the question honestly, he is not answering for TKE or even his chapter per se, but for the people he knows that are currently in his chapter.

And that is the issue, its the composition of your chapter that determines its point of view on any matter. I have seen some stupid reasons for casting blackballs before by people who's sanity I question. Some of them I want ask "Isn't that like calling the kettle black?" Which also shows that selection is a highly individual process and that people coming out should be warned before hand.

Most of you know my personal point of view on stereotypes by now, if you have forgotten, see my posts on how negative stereotypes would take away from my self-centered-me-time. Just the thought of having to take my time and hate a whole percentage of the population based on a stereotype is enough to make me tired.

And anyone that thinks they are going to get me to pause in my narcisistic contemplation of my own existence to hate people I don't even know, especially when so many people give myriads of reasons to despise them personally (they are usually interupting my self-contemplation for something stupid, like hating gays), they have another thing coming!

However, we might not have set the problem up correctly. First when does a chapter find out the person is Gay? If its after long exposure and a positive relationship . . . people are going to be more accepting. Although some people may blush about thinking about those communal showers. IF you found at the person was gay BEFORE they got a bid .. . that might be very different.

We also haven't portrayed behavioral sterotypes. Gay is just a word, but when we think of it we often think of certain stereotypes. In guys you have the lispy voice, and effeminate attitude and walk. That might turn more guys off than the sexual orientation . . . I am not sure that lesbians are protrayed all that differently in sterotyped behaviors.

Well I am rambling because its late and I took some sleeping medicine 50mg valium and 7 Jack and Diets. Good night folks

Originally posted by TKEmz894:
My point is its not happening at my school!!!! My chapter has had acouple of black, hispanic and oriental fraters come through our ranks.....Which is unheard of at most southern schools....And dont try to say otherwise Tiger/juniorgirl, cause my brother goes to LSU, and that is unheard of there to weather you want to admit it or not......Its very racist every where, but our chapter doesnt believe in judging someone on that....But Homos(So elequent dont you think)
are not excepted in my group of friends, whether yall like it or not.....I dont care what anyone in the nation thinks about that, its my opinion....So f*cking sue me and the individual members....all anyone would get was no money(we go to Nicholls), and a kick in the teeth for starting the sh^t in the first place..........You know this really pisses me off, cause I state my opinion and all the sudden people are writing telling me I could be sued, that I am disgracing the state, and that I am some kind of jerk who is stuck in the olden days.....Well I am sorry, I dont like the Medias portrayal of gay people being right I hate MTV, and I hated Pedro from the real world San Francisco...I liked Puck cause he said what he wanted and told everyone to F*ck off....Which is what I am telling Junior girl to do right now! Didnt I already talk to you about who shoved the golden egg up your ass and asked you to represnt our state? OHHH cause your from LSU you are all the sudden the voice of the greeks for the state? I mean if it was about representing the state, then say your thing about yall leting in Homos(So elequent) and go on about your way...But when you say you are representing our state and condemming me, for not liking homos, thats stupid, I mean say your peace and go, cause I really dont care. But as far as the catholic thing go ask your priest about Homosexuality in the church.....You know, I wasnt even representing the greeks for our state, I wasnt even representing My fraternities views, I was representing me and my friends (the majority in my chapters views... We have certain criteria we look for, Homosexuality is not thought highly upon, whether you like it or not.....If that is discrimination where do we draw the lines about discrimination and being selective? But honestly who really cares if you would let them in your sorority? Thats one in fifty, plus if you where so proud of that wouldnt you post what sorority you are in? Wont that hurt your rush? I think so even at the bastion of sanity and free thinking that LSU is.......I mean yall have to be the CU Berkley of the south...............

[MafiaCSUS]

Greeklawgirl,
I see what you're saying and I agree completely. I'm not intending to disagree with you. Personally, I think a case such as this would have some merit, but I do not believe it would bring any financial loss to any fraternity/sorority.
The main problem is reputation. If my local chapter was to get sued for discrimintation (merited or not) it would be terrible for the chapter. The media would be all over it. Since the media is so liberal these days in what they report, chances are they would side with the other side. Nationals would probably be discouraged and either close the chapter or have some kind of punishment... even if it is unmerited... so they can show they "took action". The only advice I can give to everyone is (and I am sure everyone knows this) is that people are waiting for us to screw up... so unfortunate people look that way. People not involved seem to only look at our social side... but not our philanthropic events or good deeds most GLO's perform.

[greeklawgirl]

You're absolutely correct, mafia. Well said.

[Kapsig1]

TKEmz894 - your statement about being sued on the basis of discrimination against a gay individual is misguided. IF (and that's a big if) the organization's rules/policy/constitution does not specifically indicate that the organization will NOT discriminate against people on the basis of sexual orientation - and IF (another bug if) the chapter/org follows their own rules in not admitting/kicking the gay person out - they're pretty much in the clear. Yes - they'll probably get sued, but they will also probably prevail - REGARDLESS of school rules, etc. Most states, and US statutory law recognize "private" orgs like GLO's rights to choose their membership as they please - right, wrong or indifferent.

Brad

Originally posted by MafiaCSUS:
TKEmz894, (and everyone else)
First off, its accepts, not excepts. I don't want to speak my opinion on this issue, but let me state a fact. If your chapter does not accept gay or lesbian people BACAUSE of that sexual prefrence, they can, and will be, sued. If someone gets enough courage to do it, they will... and chances are, they will win. True, the Boy Scouts of America can no longer have gay people in leadership positions in their organization (if they choose not to), but I assume that most judges would make a decision in favor of homsexual people. Even if they lose the case, if a lawsuit is brought against you (thus messing with your insurance), youre HQ will probably take your charter if it looks to be giving them a bad reputation.
Should gay people be allowed? I dont know... Will they face far more challenges? yes... words of advice, if you drop someone from your organization, make sure it is for something that will guard you from lawsuits that will have a negative effect on your chapter.

[TRSimon]

Originally posted by juniorgrrl:
Okay people, lets READ things here, not just make things up...

Is it really necessary to bring race into this and accuse me of being a racist simply because I kept my statements on topic?

TKE mentioned that he had members of his fraternity that were of different ethnic backgrounds, something that rarely happens in the South, especially (let's be really honest here) South Louisiana.

Yet you said nothing of it. I did not say that you were a racist. LSU operates a very racist social system, and I maintain that. If you don't like that statement, change it.

Back to the topic:

It's not right to be prejudiced against anyone. While I haven't dealt with homosexuality in my personal chapter, I have come across it in my organization. My sister is my sister, no matter who she loves, so it has never been a problem.

Now, I know few gay Greeks who, either kept their orientation in the closet or kept their Greek affiliation in the closet, because most fraternities are not willing to openly accept or socialize with openly gay men. They think it makes them look less masculine and that their founders would not approve.



[This message has been edited by TRSimon (edited July 07, 2001).]

[BiSororityGrrl]

I rushed openly bisexual, and my sisters accepted me. (I had no girlfriend at the time). Now that I do have a girlfriend, they aren't as supportive. They're still getting used to it, but they try because they're my sisters! I think the hardest things were: 2)peoples reactions to me holding hands with a girl while wearing my letters, and b) the reactions of the fraternity we associate ourselves with.

[prophet]

I don't care for anyone, I mean anyone, who can not tell the truth about themselves when rushing. If you can't come out, like my girl Melissa, f#$k of! If your homosexual, straight, Bi-whatever, and you can't say that when rushing, do not be upset when your brothers/sisters get mad at you. If you are real in the getgo, than your all good! Now, if you are homosexual and trying to date your brother/sister that is f#$ked up! People need to realize that if one day you expect to lay out your a homosexual and expect people in your frat or sor don't like it, well, oops on you. So, in short be real and your all good, stay up to all homosexuals putting it down for your frat or sor.
-Heath loves A-Phi

FKT-EPSILON THETA CHAPTER SFSU

[prophet]

I don't care for anyone, I mean anyone, who can not tell the truth about themselves when rushing. If you can't come out, like my girl Melissa, f#$k of! If your homosexual, straight, Bi-whatever, and you can't say that when rushing, do not be upset when your brothers/sisters get mad at you. If you are real in the getgo, than your all good! Now, if you are homosexual and trying to date your brother/sister that is f#$ked up! People need to realize that if one day you expect to lay out your a homosexual and expect people in your frat or sor don't like it, well, oops on you. So, in short be real and your all good, stay up to all homosexuals putting it down for your frat or sor.
-Heath loves A-Phi

FKT-EPSILON THETA CHAPTER SFSU

can someone tell me why it is in English FKT and not in Greek?

[CrucialCrimson]

Originally posted by MafiaCSUS
but I assume that most judges would make a decision in favor of homsexual people

Actually in most states your assumption would be wrong - homosexuals are not a protected class under most discrimination laws - now violence against homosexuals is a different matter. I think that organizations would do better to acknowledge that they all probably have a comparable number of homosexual men and women in their organizations than try to continue the charade that it is wrong or against their principles.

[AOX81]

I have never had to deal with this issue in my chapter, but in a fraternity on campus they happen to have two gay brothers. Everyone knows and nobody cares. They bring their boyfriends to Greek functions and they aren't treated different because of their sexual preference.

[douthit]

Where I go to school, there has been at least one gay member that I know of in a different fraternity than mine. Personally, I would not have any problem with having a gay person in my fraternity. It is a good way to promote diversity, though that would not be the only reason for someone to join, obviously. There are brothers in my chapter and other fraternities, however, who would not even consider letting a gay person join. For instance, I was given crap when one time my girlfriend and a few of her friends came over to watch a movie, and one of the guys was gay. It is just stupid the excuses people give for not wanting to have a gay member join, such as the "I'm afraid he would hit on me" reason.

As for how reputations go, I couldn't care less how it would affect ours. We are a smaller house, so a lot of other houses don't know who we are, especially the sororities. By admitting a gay member, hopefully it could show others that we are not close-minded and bigoted like as many of the people are who come from my background.

[TKE_EO303]

Gays and Greeks,

Hmmm.

1) Personally, I would not have a problem accepting someone gay into my fraternity (Tau Kappa Epsilon).

2) As far as the Bible and immorality, the Bible clearly states that immorality is wrong, sinful, and is listed as an abomination on the level of beastiality. This is both Old and New Testaments.

3) On the other hand, the Bible (for those who use that as their standard) also condemns all sexual relations outside of marriage. I know very few PHC girls who were virgins when they were married. Very few indeed. I know of exactly zero IFC guys who were virgins when they married. None. Zippo. I mean not a single one. So I find it rather amusing that a Greek would ever bring up the idea that gays should not be accepted because they have immoral inclinations or are living an immoral lifestyle. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. *shudders as he recalls the debauchery he has witnessed in his time*

4) As far as Jesus, he told us to love all people but also to reject sin and carnality. However, his strongest comdemnations were against hypocrites.

5) You can't successfully sue a GLO for not accepting gays. Freedom of association is a constitutional right. Even state laws can't override it--as the Boy Scout case once again reaffirmed. However, you can mock them, shun them, and refuse to have anything to do with them---which sometimes is more effective than sueing anyway. (You could also bar them from public money, but few, if any, GLOs receive public funding--so tis a moot point).

Jack

[RUgreek]

Hate to break the news to some of you, but sexual orientation is not a protected class yet. Title VII protections do not extend to people that are gay, sorry.

Having said that, even if someone wanted to sue a fraternity or sorority for denying them membership based on discrimination, there is still probably no cause of action. For example, the Boys and Girls Scouts of America, private clubs/orgs. with membership standards and req. If you are gay, you won't be allowed to join. Can you sue them, no.

Lastly, fraternities and sororities are private groups. Not receiving any federal funding (to the best of my knowledge) and so they are not governed by the courts for what goes on inside their respective communities. As long as they are not breaking any laws, they in a sense immune to certain regulations.

On a personal note, I had a few gay friends in college, none in my fraternity. It probably wouldn't affect me, but I do believe my brothers would be a little uncomfortable.

- RUgreek

[SilverTurtle]

I attended a very small school in Columbus, OH. I know of at least 4 GLOs that had openly gay and/or bi members while I was there. It wasn't an issue with anyone. They brought dates (guy/guy or girl/girl) to their functions and no one blinked-they just had fun. There was a relatively high gay student population in general, I think, and everyone had a few gay friends anyway. On top of that, all of the GLOs were small (20-40 members) so people knew each other really well.

I think a lot of it does have to do with the environment your campus is in & the students involved in greek life. Columbus has a large gay population, and some of the best clubs were "gay" ones. Our students were exposed to it all of the time. The faculty & advisors tended towards the liberal in general, even though the campus was rather conservative. So there was a lot of support for minorities of any kind.

Back to the original question- I think your friend should come out. These are his brothers... why should he lie to them? He might do well to come out to a few close friends in the chapter first, so he can gain some support before coming out to everyone.

[aephi alum]

Sadly, the prejudice does exist. There was a young woman in a sorority at my school (not mine) who was very well liked. She'd held a few offices in her chapter, including an exec board position. She was also a closeted lesbian. Feeling that she could tell her sisters anything, she came out at a fireside. And that was *it* - a lot of her sisters stopped talking to her, she was never again elected to an office, and she was basically made pretty miserable for the rest of her college years.

My sorority never had any openly gay members, but I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever, and I certainly wouldn't vote against anyone strictly because of her sexual orientation.