Universities Under Investigation Re: Handling Sexual Assault

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Yes, a societal problem. But if the law said they can't prosecute, then how can the school take action? If the rapists fought the school, wouldn't the argument "You can't suspend me because even the district attorney said there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute" be sufficient to prevent the school from taking action?

I would think that the school wouldn't be prevented from taking action - students have been suspended/expelled for much less serious crimes than sexual assault. The big problem for these schools in cases such as these is the potential for lawsuits… from both sides.

I know there are cases where a complete mishandling of the complaint has occurred, but for the most part, I think these schools feel stuck. I've read about some of the individual cases, and in at least a handful of them, the schools are not being accused of gross negligence. Well, they are, but on the surface, it's not a reasonable complaint; not one that should earn a student huge dollar amounts in damages, anyway.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Yes, a societal problem. But if the law said they can't prosecute, then how can the school take action? If the rapists fought the school, wouldn't the argument "You can't suspend me because even the district attorney said there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute" be sufficient to prevent the school from taking action?

No. Schools can kick people out as they see fit, as long as their policies aren't violating laws themselves (e.g. targeting a protected class). You don't have a constitutional right to attend college.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

No. Schools can kick people out as they see fit, as long as their policies aren't violating laws themselves (e.g. targeting a protected class). You don't have a constitutional right to attend college.

Yup. Though breaking housing contracts on the school's side can be screwy in some states.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

No. Schools can kick people out as they see fit, as long as their policies aren't violating laws themselves (e.g. targeting a protected class). You don't have a constitutional right to attend college.

Really? So I can pay full tuition, room & board and for absolutely no reason at all, they can just say "Sorry, you're done, leave"? Are they legally obligated to return your fees?

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Really? So I can pay full tuition, room & board and for absolutely no reason at all, they can just say "Sorry, you're done, leave"? Are they legally obligated to return your fees?

Nope. Schools have a lot of power over students that people aren't aware of. When you attend you agree to go by the handbook which essentially says you can be booted for anything in a lot of places.

[KXEM]

I sat on my university's disciplinary committee for 2 years and I did participate in a sexual assault case. It was an extremely difficult situation and the victim was very hesitant to come forward at all and did so only after being pressured by numerous sources months after the fact. After almost 10 hours of questioning/testimony and deliberation we found in favor of the accused. There was a separate case filed with the city/state on the matter and we were instructed that our decision was in no way, shape, or form going to have any bearing on that case or vice versa. And even then it wasn't a case of whether the law was violated, it was solely whether or not school policy was violated. I know the parents of the victim were very upset with our decision, but the bottom line is that until you are put in that position where you have to choose guilty or innocent you can't judge that decision. Sure we could have exhausted days more of questioning and deliberation and investigation but the bottom line is that it is really a matter for the police/legal system and not the university to decide.

Schools lack the necessary resources to fully investigate many claims, yes I feel they should create a safe place to promote learning. But it is not the school's duty to police people, they should take the necessary steps to remove obvious threats but to me its silly to think they could possibly handle serious investigations into sexual assault in the same capacity as local law enforcement.

And to comment about victim rights...Before I was contacted about joining the committee I had no idea that it existed nor the process for reporting any of the violations that came to it. I knew how to report if something was stolen etc but my first instinct would never be to contact campus security or the school, it would be to contact the freaking police!

I know none of what I said excuses the behavior but I think its unreasonable to think a school could better deal with a case of sexual assault than the local law enforcement.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Why reporting to the police isn't the solution to the college rape problem:

http://jezebel.com/why-reporting-to-...leg-1578988324

[FSUZeta]

I just stumbled upon this thread, and being an FSU alum wanted to read my fellow greekchatters opinions. The one thing I came away with is that we form the best opinions when we avail ourselves of different views. Just as some will think that FSU leapt to the defense of their star quarterback, the NYT's has it's own moneymaking agenda, and picks and chooses the information it uses to construct articles. Don't take any news reported by any source verbatim. I have linked the official response by FSU to the NYT article and I am trying to find the police transcripts, which paint a different picture than the media portrays. If I find them, I will post the link.

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2014/4...jameis-winston

http://fsunytimes.fsu.edu/

[FSUZeta]

Found the case files. Here is the link:

http://ncaa.blog.chatsports.com/file...-Case-File.pdf

And for those who don't have the inclination to read all 243 pages, this is a link to a synopsis of the files. I do not know the analyst personally, so cannot attest to his accuracy, and being an FSU fan, he has a certain bias. I read the complete files when they were first released, but I will withhold my opinion, because I don't want to introduce bias. i do hope some of you will read and discuss.

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/1...tion-documents

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

Found the case files. Here is the link:

http://ncaa.blog.chatsports.com/file...-Case-File.pdf

And for those who don't have the inclination to read all 243 pages, this is a link to a synopsis of the files. I do not know the analyst personally, so cannot attest to his accuracy, and being an FSU fan, he has a certain bias. I read the complete files when they were first released, but I will withhold my opinion, because I don't want to introduce bias. i do hope some of you will read and discuss.

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/1...tion-documents

The second link pretty clearly undermines your point that you don't want to introduce bias. That guy picks apart the inconsistencies of the victim's statements and her friends, while completely and totally ignoring those of Winston and his friends.

In any case, the problem comes in with things like p84. Why would a police investigator need to go through the athletic office to talk to Winston or his friends? Why are members of the athletic staff claiming to serve as representatives of the football players involved?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

The second link pretty clearly undermines your point that you don't want to introduce bias. That guy picks apart the inconsistencies of the victim's statements and her friends, while completely and totally ignoring those of Winston and his friends.

In any case, the problem comes in with things like p84. Why would a police investigator need to go through the athletic office to talk to Winston or his friends? Why are members of the athletic staff claiming to serve as representatives of the football players involved?

What were the inconsistencies of Winston and his friends?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by honorgal

What were the inconsistencies of Winston and his friends?

"I went into the room to play a joke on him, oh, wait, I mean I actually went into the room to ask if I could have sex with her too."

In any case, it's not germane to the point of how FSU handled this. FSU clearly rallied around Winston, as evidenced by the fact that the athletic department intervened when the university was contacted by the police. That's not an acceptable way to treat an accusation of any crime.

Rape happens a lot, and it's poorly handled on college campuses. I don't know why you are so invested in arguing the merits of individual cases when the point is that campus rape is a problem.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

"I went into the room to play a joke on him, oh, wait, I mean I actually went into the room to ask if I could have sex with her too."

In any case, it's not germane to the point of how FSU handled this. FSU clearly rallied around Winston, as evidenced by the fact that the athletic department intervened when the university was contacted by the police. That's not an acceptable way to treat an accusation of any crime.

Rape happens a lot, and it's poorly handled on college campuses. I don't know why you are so invested in arguing the merits of individual cases when the point is that campus rape is a problem.

Yes, I've heard it happens a lot. 1 in 5. Even the President is using this made up statistic now. I'm not buying it. That would make our college campuses more dangerous than the worst of our inner cities. I'm the mother of a beautiful and precious rising college junior. If I believed her college campus was as dangerous as you are claiming, I'd make her live at home and attend a local school. And so would scores of other caring parents.

I'm invested in the truth, not hysteria. Your framing of the issue is very telling - let's not focus on individual cases and facts. But there are real individuals behind each of them, and real consequences for the men too. There ARE rapes on college campuses. But drunken, regretted, disrespectful hookup sex between friends and aquaintences is the much bigger problem behind the statistics. And it's foolish to think our colleges can adjudicate the vast majority of these situations fairly or with due process for both parties. Rape is a serious felony, and it should be treated as such. We don't expect our college administrators to handle any other felonies (murder, serious assault). Why do we have an exception for rape?

[FSUZeta]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

The second link pretty clearly undermines your point that you don't want to introduce bias. That guy picks apart the inconsistencies of the victim's statements and her friends, while completely and totally ignoring those of Winston and his friends.

In any case, the problem comes in with things like p84. Why would a police investigator need to go through the athletic office to talk to Winston or his friends? Why are members of the athletic staff claiming to serve as representatives of the football players involved?

I stand corrected-I should have said that I don't want to share my own opinion at this time, as it may appear biased.

And again I ask, have you read the case records?

Troll=/= Honorgal. Honorgal has been a GC member for a while.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

And again I ask, have you read the case records?

In my observation, most people don't ever take the time to bother with the facts.