Facebook Parenting: One pissed off dad!

[DZsis&mom]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Let's see . . . indicators of abuse . . .

-Monitoring and controlling the victim

No... You monitor & control your children's behavior. That is not abuse.

[AGDee]

Controlling a person and controlling behavior are two different things. That said, at age 15, if you haven't taught them right by now, you're not going to be able to control their behavior either.

Even when I heard the content of her letter, I didn't think it was that bad. Don't most teenagers think this stuff, write in a diary, etc. at some point? Doesn't everybody have those days when they hate their parents, as teens? My mom and I had a great relationship but she destroyed my world with rules sometimes and I would be royally ticked off. This kid put a rant about her parents on Facebook and excluded her family and church people from seeing it. She didn't do drugs. She didn't come home pregnant. She didn't kill someone or steal. She ranted about her parents.. something teens do every single day. And we know where she learned the swear words too, don't we?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Controlling a person and controlling behavior are two different things. That said, at age 15, if you haven't taught them right by now, you're not going to be able to control their behavior either.

Even when I heard the content of her letter, I didn't think it was that bad. Don't most teenagers think this stuff, write in a diary, etc. at some point? Doesn't everybody have those days when they hate their parents, as teens? My mom and I had a great relationship but she destroyed my world with rules sometimes and I would be royally ticked off. This kid put a rant about her parents on Facebook and excluded her family and church people from seeing it. She didn't do drugs. She didn't come home pregnant. She didn't kill someone or steal. She ranted about her parents.. something teens do every single day. And we know where she learned the swear words too, don't we?

This! OMG...if this is the worst she is doing, he should thank his lucky stars. There are much worse kids out there. It's so funny how many parents think their kids are one step out of juvie when they are straight A students but they are rebelling at home by listening to rock music or talking back to their parents. It's actually normal development to test boundaries.

[AXOmom]

This is in response to several previous posts so it is long. I apologize for that. As much as I detest conflict- even mild internet conflict- I feel compelled to defend this dad for some reason, so even though this might get many tarred and feathered by several posters simultaneously, here it goes.


I want to state again that as a parent I would not have handled this in the same way this dad does. I would make different decisions, but that being said I still disagree with the assertion his actions make him a nutcase. I just don’t see the evidence for that.


While I don’t think putting it on facebook was a great judgment call, I don’t think it makes him a hypocrite in the strict sense of the word. If with no reason he had told her not to use facebook in that manner, but she had discovered he was using it in that matter, I would agree, but if she chose to do it despite his warnings not to - well, she opened the door and he has a right to defend himself in the same forum she used to slander him, his wife, and her mom. Personally, I would just take the computer and know that kids say stupid things about their parents all the time (which doesn’t excuse it), but I do understand his logic which was, “I’ve warned you that this isn’t an appropriate place to air your beefs with us, but if that’s what you want to do, then we’ll handle our issues your way and see how that works out.” He also stated he wanted her friends who thought her behavior was funny to realize why it might not be all that funny if their parents chose this same course of action.


He states that he believes if children misbehave in public places, they should be prepared to face the consequences in public places. Interestingly, we recently had a speaker come to our school who worked for the regional educational district. She discussed bullying and harassment issues. She was talking about bullying but wasn’t necessarily limiting it to this when she told us that if children commit certain behaviors in public they need to be called out on them in public. She pointed out that sometimes dealing with a discipline issue privately is not always the best course of action.
*****
To be specific there is a difference between saying you don’t want all this media attention and you didn’t expect all this media attention. Everything I’ve read on his facebook page indicates the latter not the former. Granted, that may also be BS or stupidity, but he isn’t (at least that I see) crying about being hounded by the media, the public, or social services. He indicates that once this went viral he understands why that followed. He also stated that he thinks that fact is one of the best things his daughter learned from this – what you put on a public forum has long term-consequences. If he wants to capitalize on it, he hasn’t done so to date, but I realize that could change in a moment.
****
He did create the video and put it on Youtube because he said it was easier to link to her facebook which he stated was the only place he ever intended it to be seen (not because he wasn’t aware it could be seen on YouTube - he indicated it didn’t occur to him anyone else would be interested and yes, again, that could be BS or stupidity on his part). His own facebook looks like it goes back to 2007, so he didn’t create a facebook page for this that I can tell unless there is another one that hasn’t been linked on here.
*****
Whether or not he knows how to discipline her I don't think anyone could say with much validity. I haven’t seen anything yet from teachers, friends, or relatives that mentions what this girl's behavior is like on a daily basis. He has an ex-wife who hasn’t stepped up to describe him as abusive, ineffective, uncommunicative, controlling or difficult. No one from their community has commented on his parenting skills one way or another so far.


The only thing the video states is that she had done something similar in the past, he had grounded her for 3 months, and warned her if it happened again the next consequence would be worse. On his facebook he states that after he put it up and all of this happened they talked for a while about it and made their peace. Don’t know whether that’s the case or his spin. It doesn’t sound like they had unreasonable expectations of her or there was anything to indicate it was a violent or abusive household. He simply took her computer away. That in and of itself doesn’t sound like a parent who doesn’t know how to discipline. So far those sound like reasonable disciplinary decisions a lot of parents would make.


The disagreement begins with how he got rid of the computer and his decision to post his issues with her on facebook. Those seem less about discipline than judgment. The latter might be seen as a discipline issue, but I don’t know that one poor decision on his part qualifies as evidence of an inability to discipline your child over the long haul.
*****
As to the concern about safety- he’s in an open field shooting into the ground with a 45 and the only cars and buildings are quite a ways off. The only one at risk is him.


Other than the safety issue which seems fairly unlikely and the reality that the computer could be better used, I don’t see why the fact that he shot the computer in and of itself is an issue. Is shooting an inanimate object worse than slamming it to the ground or smashing it with a hammer? If the intention is to destroy it is one method of doing that preferable to another? Why is it any worse or more a sign of instability than shooting a deer?


I could understand if he stormed into his daughter’s room, ripped the computer out of the wall, threw it into the backyard and started shooting because then we’ve got an impulsive guy with a gun who has some anger management issues, but this guy waited a full day after he found that entry, talked to his wife and ex-wife about it, thought about his response, set up the video, recorded his response, and calmly shot the computer which seems silly but not dangerous. He wasn’t raging or out of control.
******
As far as the indicators of abuse go - having spent a lot of time working in a juvenile correctional facility with real victims of abuse – truly horrifying abuse - let me just say I’m really bothered by any attempt to equate this with what the kids I worked with went through.


First off, in the context of abuse displaying a weapon means using it or showing it to threaten the victim in some way or suggest that they should feel threatened. Owning a gun and using it on inanimate objects doesn’t mean you're displaying a weapon or threatening family members with it. I lived in an area (several actually) where people lived on large pieces of property and shot weapons at inanimate things all the time for the heck of it. It wouldn’t float my boat, but as long as they were obeying safety laws and sticking to inanimate objects, I didn’t assume they were abusive people solely because they did this. If we follow that logic then most hunters must also be serial killers because serial killers usually start off killing and torturing animals.


If anything, the fact that his daughter wrote this diatribe on facebook would indicate the opposite. None of the abused kids I knew would do that. They had bigger issues than chores and they weren’t that stupid. Writing that would have gotten them beaten or killed.


This wasn’t her property – it was his. He paid for it.


Maybe it’s just my skewed perspective but I would rate this low on the humiliation scale. When your dad holds a gun to your head, stands you outside on a porch, and asks passing migrant farm workers if they want to buy you for $25 (happened to one of my students) THAT’S humiliation. This is just embarrassing. That happens and kids live through it. I'm sure what she said about him and her mother and step-mother was pretty embarrasing for them to - would that make her the abuser and them the victims?


I’m not sure a parent looking at his 15 year old daughter’s facebook page qualifies as controlling or monitoring, but for the record, he saw it only because he was installing some pretty expensive equipment on it that she asked for. In addition, he’s in IT, so you would think it would occur to her that it was at least possible (parents being parents) they would see this.
******
As to the two last posts – I’ll refer back to our recent school seminar on bullying – another “normal” teenage behavior as old as the hills that has now similarly moved into social media. Sometimes the bulliers are also A students who aren’t doing drugs or getting in any other type of obvious trouble. I have one of those right now. Does it follow that if we confront a parent with this child’s behavior, they can respond by saying, “Hey everyone does this at some point. It isn’t like she’s doing drugs and besides, she’s 15, there’s nothing I can do about it now. She is what she is and I don’t want to be too controlling.”?


Yes, there are worse things kids can do than say disrespectful things about their parents. My children could have done much worse things than the things they did do and I’m grateful they didn’t, but this doesn’t mean I didn’t give them consequences for the bad decisions they made using the logic it could have been much worse. Normal teenage behavior isn’t always necessarily equivalent to acceptable teenage behavior.


I don’t know that I agree that if you haven’t taught them right by now (age 15) you won’t be able to control their behavior. I’ve seen kids put into placements where the environment was structured and the rules and consequences were clear, consistent, and fair who did change after age 15 and change significantly. I would agree that it is a much tougher and harder row to hoe.


As was pointed out - she isn't pregnant, doing drugs, or committing crimes, so dad must have been raising her right for the most part, but it doesn't follow that a child who is raised right will make perfect decisions after age 15 or should never expect a parent to enact consequences for the poor ones they probably will make. It also doesn't follow (at least to me) that a parent who does enact consequence for those decisions is trying to control their child.

[christiangirl]

Well, I was going to say a few things but it looks like you covered them all. So as not to be redundant, I'll just co-sign and sit down. Well-said.

ETA: Okay, I'll add this because I think it's really unfair to call this man an abuser because of something as petty as this.

Now I'm letting my daughter have her interview with Social Services, so they too can be satisfied that I don't yell at her, beat her, traumatize her, lock her in a closet without food, deprive her of basic human rights, make her cut the grass with scizzors, hunt for her meals in the wild with only a spork, or otherwise fail to provide for my daughter. She's great. She's strong. And apparently she's handling it better than some of you are.

For those that feel the need to keep calling the police and CPS. lol

Apparently both the local police and the department of social services are OK with it. Yes they came. Of course they came. They received enough "Oh my god he's going to kill his daughter" comments that they had to. I knew that the moment it went viral.. it was too late and it was inevitable. I'm only surprised it took as long as it did to be honest.

The police by the way said "Kudos, Sir" and most of them made their kids watch it. I actually had a "thank you" from an entire detectives squad. And another police officer is using it in a positive manner in his presentation for the school system. How's about those apples? Didn't expect THAT when you called the cops did you?

The kind lady from Child Protective Services looked all through the house, the yard, and found ours to be a healthy home. She saw the unloaded guns in their rack with the magazines removed and stored separately and safely...She was comfortable that I was adhering to NC gun safety regulations for the protection of minors, and that's all she needed.

My favorite line (which seems to have been taken down now) was his posting of his daughter's reaction to the comments he's getting. Her response was something to the effect of "It's just a laptop, I'll get over it." Most people said she's going to be a stripper now that he's traumatized her so badly she can't be a functioning member of society. She asked him to post back if there is another profession that victims of laptop homocide tend to go into (he obliged and posted that for her).

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by DZsis&mom

No... You monitor & control your children's behavior. That is not abuse.

That list is not of my making - it is from a clinical definition of abuse.

Once you are using a firearm in your parenting, you've crossed a line.

[AGDee]

The more I think about this, the more I think he shot an empty laptop case. The capacitors, the CMOS battery, the chemicals in an LCD screen... I'm pretty sure the laptop would have exploded if shot with the kind of bullets he said he used. He definitely would have had to take the laptop battery, the CMOS battery and the display off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No5Hz...feature=relmfu

Regardless, I have read some of the dad's posts on Facebook since the incident and he seems less crazy than the original incident, admits maybe it wasn't the best way to handle it, etc. But he did that, out of anger, within an hour of finding her post, which does show poor judgment when angry. If he was my dad, I'd be afraid of him. He doesn't parent the way I would and I wouldn't date someone who would discipline his kid this way.

My current facebook status:

A promise to my children: No matter what you do, no matter what you say about me on Facebook, discipline will NEVER involve a gun. Maybe that's why you're such great kids??

I've always allowed my kids to be mad at me. I get mad at them. We aren't allowed to express that disrespectfully. The rules are the same for all of us. I have never told my kids to "Shut up". I have never sworn at them and rarely swear in front of them. I have told them "I am too angry with you to discuss it right now" and waited until I calmed down. I have sent them to their rooms to calm down before we could discuss something. I have said "What were you thinking?", I have said "I love you to the core, but I don't like what you did and I need time to process this." I have yelled (although it has been years since I've had to), but I yelled directions, not insults. My son could be pretty aggressive when angry when he was much younger, likely because his parents were so incredibly angry with each other and he was feeling that. What really worked? Us divorcing, so he wasn't surrounded by that tension all the time. When they were angry about being punished or me saying no to something, did they tell me they hated me? Yes. Did I take it personally? No. Did I once pack up all the toys into garbage bags and let them think that I donated them to charity because they weren't picking up their toys? Yes.

My kids do a lot around the house, especially since I started school. Once in a while, one of them will complain that they don't want to and I point out that I don't really want to grocery shop or make dinner either, but it's all part of keeping our family and household running and it takes a group effort to get it done. We talk about it. They know they are allowed to be angry with me, which is why they wouldn't have to post something like that on Facebook. When I ask them to do something out of their normal chores, I generally give them a deadline rather than ask them to do it right this minute. I hated when my parents asked me to immediately stop whatever I was doing and do something they wanted me to do. What I was doing was usually important to me. I respect that. I will say "I really need you to ____ before 2 o'clock today". Sometimes they do it right away, sometimes it gets done at 1:55. It gets done though.

I still maintain I'd be afraid of a guy who would shoot a laptop. Not OK in my book. I hear a lot of parents say "Shut up" to their kids too, but that's not OK in my book either.

[AXOmom]

^^^ And I agree with all of this. Well, all of it except I wouldn't be afraid of him and it sounds like his family isn't.

You seem like a wise parent and like you I wouldn't date him, but it's because I think he acted foolishly, I don't like smoking and I don't personally want to be around guns...oh yeah, and there's the fact I'm married so that probably wouldn't be good parenting - LOL. I just don't think that using one on a laptop makes him a nutcase or an abuser.

Most parents can look back on things we did and wonder how our children came out of their unbringing well-adjusted, but it doesn't make us abusive nutcases and it was putting him into those boxes with little evidence to support it that I take issue with.

SWTXBelle - Yes those may be the definitions of an abuser, but those are open to a lot of interpretations and that's my issue with what you said. What constitutes controlling or monitoring? If my child claims I'm being controlling because I set a 11 pm curfew (I didn't) then am I abusive? If I allow my 14 year old to have a facebook but only under the conditions that I am added as a friend and can see it - is that monitoring and am I abusive? Monitoring and controlling behavior may be part of the definition, but whether or not this constitutes monitoring and controlling behavior is the question. If this was his wife - certainly, but when it is his child - well, child protective services in my state at least would laugh you out of the room frankly if you tried to pass the fact that the dad saw his child's facebook entry while he was updating her computer and decided she wasn't going to have access to a computer anymore off as monitoring and controlling behavior.

As to the gun issue - That definition assumes that you are displaying a weapon in order to harm or lead the victim to believe that at some point you can or will harm them with that weapon. Merely having a weapon and using it at some point on your property is not what that definition is meant to imply. Using a firearm in your parenting would cross a line if he used it to threaten his child or lead her to believe it might be a threat. I do think it was pointless, but to equate it with what that definition is meant to cover (parents like the one I mentioned who hold a gun to their child's head) just isn't fair and is borderline offensive to those kids who truly live in fear. If social services agreed with your definition - the girl would be setting in foster care as we speak. They intereviewed her and that's been that.

Having said that, something else could always come out of this that would point the other direction and he could turn out to be, in fact, an abusive nut case. I just don't believe that on the evidence that is currently available, that is a conclusion anyone could draw at this point.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

Maybe it’s just my skewed perspective but I would rate this low on the humiliation scale. When your dad holds a gun to your head, stands you outside on a porch, and asks passing migrant farm workers if they want to buy you for $25 (happened to one of my students) THAT’S humiliation. This is just embarrassing. That happens and kids live through it. I'm sure what she said about him and her mother and step-mother was pretty embarrasing for them to - would that make her the abuser and them the victims?

I saw the thoughtfulness of your post until you got to this. WHAT?! This wouldn't be humiliation. It would be a crime. Parents don't get to hold guns to their children's heads and call it "humiliation". That's assault and child abuse. I just went back and saw the part where this actually happened to one of your students. I sure hope you reported this. It IS your duty to report this type of incident to the police, CPS or related agencies. This could prevent further abuse of this poor child.

[SWTXBelle]

Guns should have no role in disciplining a child. Period. Just because something is meant to "teach a lesson" doesn't make it not abusive.

eta - I also hate the fact that he felt it necessary to destroy the computer. I have had to threaten my boys with losing something they were not taking care of - but instead of blowing it up with firearms, I told them we would give the offending item to our local Goodwill-type store so that it could be used by someone who would appreciate it. I am happy to report that they got the message without my having to donate anything. That computer could have been put to good use by any number of organizations or people in need.

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I saw the thoughtfulness of your post until you got to this. WHAT?! This wouldn't be humiliation. It would be a crime. Parents don't get to hold guns to their children's heads and call it "humiliation". That's assault and child abuse. I just went back and saw the part where this actually happened to one of your students. I sure hope you reported this. It IS your duty to report this type of incident to the police, CPS or related agencies. This could prevent further abuse of this poor child.

AOII Angel - I apologize if it sounded in like I felt or believed that humiliation was the only issue in my student's experience. It certainly wasn't. My mention of this event was not meant in anyway to imply otherwise. I just wanted to make clear that the laptop situation in no way compares to this which, as you quite correctly pointed out, was indeed a crime and abusive in addition to being humiliating.

This girl was one of my students that I taught in juvenile corrections. It was one in a long series of events her father had perpetrated. In this case, the incident had long since been reported, he had been dealt with (don't remember how) and this was in her file so there was nothing for me to report. I am very aware of my professional duty and moral obligation as a mandatory reporter. In fact, it was reported, according to her, by one of the migrant farm workers whom he made the offer to.

SWTXBelle, I think the issue I have with your point is that saying he was using a gun to discipline a child implies an action that didn't occur here. The child wasn't present, he didn't threaten her, he didn't suggest the same would happen to her, and she clearly doesn't in anyway seem to fear him or feel threatened by him.

Do I think it was the best way to dispose of a computer? Absolutely not - but your initial statement implies that because he shot up a piece of equipment he owned this somehow implies he is abusive. I'm sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree with that and I guess that is where we'll have to leave it since I doubt we will change each other's viewpoints on the subject.

I just feel strongly (I know this isn't your intent) that it belittles the experiece of children like the young woman I mentioned whose parents do actually threaten them with weapons and who are truly abusive.

Again, maybe working so long with kids who were abused has hardened me, but I don't see this father's actions being even remotely in the same category as what those kids lived through, and I don't think they should be lumped together.

[DZsis&mom]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

AOII Angel - I apologize if it sounded in like I felt or believed that humiliation was the only issue in my student's experience. It certainly wasn't. My mention of this event was not meant in anyway to imply otherwise. I just wanted to make clear that the laptop situation in no way compares to this which, as you quite correctly pointed out, was indeed a crime and abusive in addition to being humiliating.

This girl was one of my students that I taught in juvenile corrections. It was one in a long series of events her father had perpetrated. In this case, the incident had long since been reported, he had been dealt with (don't remember how) and this was in her file so there was nothing for me to report. I am very aware of my professional duty and moral obligation as a mandatory reporter. In fact, it was reported, according to her, by one of the migrant farm workers whom he made the offer to.

SWTXBelle, I think the issue I have with your point is that saying he was using a gun to discipline a child implies an action that didn't occur here. The child wasn't present, he didn't threaten her, he didn't suggest the same would happen to her, and she clearly doesn't in anyway seem to fear him or feel threatened by him.

Do I think it was the best way to dispose of a computer? Absolutely not - but your initial statement implies that because he shot up a piece of equipment he owned this somehow implies he is abusive. I'm sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree with that and I guess that is where we'll have to leave it since I doubt we will change each other's viewpoints on the subject.

I just feel strongly (I know this isn't your intent) that it belittles the experiece of children like the young woman I mentioned whose parents do actually threaten them with weapons and who are truly abusive.

Again, maybe working so long with kids who were abused has hardened me, but I don't see this father's actions being even remotely in the same category as what those kids lived through, and I don't think they should be lumped together.

This was First Class!!!

[SWTXBelle]

AXOmom, you are correct that I cannot see ever thinking using a gun in any way, shape or form to discipline a child is going to send the right message. What he did was in order to discipline her. Is it the equivalent of holding a gun to her head? No. But we don't know - and can't - what she took away from the incident in terms of fear or threatening. I don't mean to intimate that this is the equivalent of obvious and unquestionable abuse. I do think that the celebration of his actions ignores the potential for it to be abusive.

How many times after the fact do family and friends of abuse victims see the warning signs only AFTER it has escalated? Destroying property (and whoever bought it, it seems to have been "her" computer; just because he paid for her underwear would you say it was "his"?) in a violent manner would certainly raise concerns in my mind. It may be a one-time thing; it may not.

At the very least, he chose a poor way to instill his lesson.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Let's see . . . indicators of abuse . . .

-Displaying weapons
-Destruction of (victim’s) property
-Humiliation (of victim)
-Monitoring and controlling the victim

Damn I should've been put in CPS if this is the case.

-I got threatened with a wooden spoon. A WOODEN SPOON OMG! That would be child abuse these days. Back then it was discipline.

-Eh nothing was ever destroyed because my parents bought it and didn't feel like buying me another one.

-My mom used to show up places I was to see if I was doing anything or to pick me up, etc. It was pretty embarrassing that I couldn't walk home from dances, go to so and so's house after, and get high or drunk. I was really humiliated.

-My mom set a curfew for me and drove around town one night looking for me when a friend decided we were walking home from another friend's house, who lived across town. Pretty controlling.

I don't do drugs. I don't drink (anymore. Partying in college got old after graduation) You know why? My parents instilled the FEAR OF GOD in me. Any of the things my parents used to do while I was growing up to be sure I wasn't getting in trouble, could be considered child abuse these days. It's really sad. This father was humiliated by his daughter to her friends on FB. Don't you realize that probably really hurt him? Yes, kudos to him! And like Dee said, it looks like an empty laptop case.

And for pete's sake, he didn't point the gun at her or even use it in her presence. Seriously?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

AOII Angel - I apologize if it sounded in like I felt or believed that humiliation was the only issue in my student's experience. It certainly wasn't. My mention of this event was not meant in anyway to imply otherwise. I just wanted to make clear that the laptop situation in no way compares to this which, as you quite correctly pointed out, was indeed a crime and abusive in addition to being humiliating.

This girl was one of my students that I taught in juvenile corrections. It was one in a long series of events her father had perpetrated. In this case, the incident had long since been reported, he had been dealt with (don't remember how) and this was in her file so there was nothing for me to report. I am very aware of my professional duty and moral obligation as a mandatory reporter. In fact, it was reported, according to her, by one of the migrant farm workers whom he made the offer to.

SWTXBelle, I think the issue I have with your point is that saying he was using a gun to discipline a child implies an action that didn't occur here. The child wasn't present, he didn't threaten her, he didn't suggest the same would happen to her, and she clearly doesn't in anyway seem to fear him or feel threatened by him.

Do I think it was the best way to dispose of a computer? Absolutely not - but your initial statement implies that because he shot up a piece of equipment he owned this somehow implies he is abusive. I'm sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree with that and I guess that is where we'll have to leave it since I doubt we will change each other's viewpoints on the subject.

I just feel strongly (I know this isn't your intent) that it belittles the experiece of children like the young woman I mentioned whose parents do actually threaten them with weapons and who are truly abusive.

Again, maybe working so long with kids who were abused has hardened me, but I don't see this father's actions being even remotely in the same category as what those kids lived through, and I don't think they should be lumped together.

Thanks for addressing that, AXOmom. That really bothered me. You'd be surprised how many mandatory reporters would look at something like that and think, "That's not something I should report." In my 6 years of residency, I saw way to many cases of severe child abuse. I have almost PTSD style flash backs sometimes when someone brings up child abuse. It's really disgusting what humans can do to children.