Rushing again

[carnation]

I did read it. And there have been several who've tried to say that they didn't cut based on tiers but we've had several posters who refuse to believe that PNMs drop out for reasons unrelated to tiers.

[Barbie's_Rush]

Originally Posted by carnation

I did read it. And there have been several who've tried to say that they didn't cut based on tiers but we've had several posters who refuse to believe that PNMs drop out for reasons unrelated to tiers.

Because everyone comes to greekchat when they've been cut by the "fat ugly girl" chapter.

[carnation]

No, "everyone" does not. Some do. Others have other reasons for coming to GC. The last thing I want to do when someone is down is stomp on them and ridicule them for their choices in recruitment, bad or good. I wasn't there and why jump on someone who's upset?

[AXOrushadvisor]

IMHO, recruitment is really a fickle business. The elephant in the room is that on most college campuses all sororities are not created equal. They are all different and all have different levels of success on a campus and that is ok because there are all different types of women who go through recruitment. There are wonderful girls on every campus that get dropped every fall from Chapters and girls Chapters don't think are qualified and released from every Chapter. I would tell my own daughter that if she got to the end of recruitment and went entirely through the whole process and still didn't feel any connection with what she had left to NOT sign a bid card. Most of us this board are old and wise and I think we sometimes forget what it is like to be an 18 year old "girl" who may not have a Mom or a Sister who is Greek to help guide them through the process.

[angelove]

Here's another example of "not fitting in" with a certain chapter that's not necessarily "tier" based - During rush, this PNM was at a "top tier" sorority during the second round of parties. This was a good sorority with strong sisterhood, good fraternity socials, campus involvement, cheerleaders, etc. Her rusher showed her the trophy that the sorority had won for having the highest overall GPA in Panhellenic for that year. PNM actually said out loud, "Well, I know I can't help you with that!" and cut the sorority for the next round. It wasn't that she thought it was a nerdy sorority; she just wasn't one of the smartest girls and was scared she would bring them down.

Of course, PNM pledged my chapter and was held over for initiation due to grades. Great sister, though.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by carnation

We need to give the PNMs the benefit of the doubt in their choices and not second guess why they made them. When they say they had their reasons for cutting ABC, why should we run them down? I cut one good sorority because they were heavily, heavily into athletics and I figured they'd hate me when I didn't want to sign up for a sport. I cut one of those considered "top tier" because they were so condescending and rude to me and all those around me. I would've been ticked if someone on an anonymous board had said, "Yeah, we know you cut them because they were small, snob." I discussed this recently with a woman who was a PH officer when I helped advise at one SEC school--she said that she cut ABC when she rushed because they were so into winning the Greek musical shows and she figured they'd hate her when she began to sing. That chapter is fantastic.

Truth is, we have no idea why they cut who they cut. Actually, many of us hardly remember the reasons our teenage selves cut groups.

Yeah, in an ideal world, all the girls who were cut would band together and strengthen a smaller group. Why won't they? Because especially at a huge school , they will know at most a couple other girls who dropped out and especially in the South, no one (including PanHellenic) is going to hang out a banner that says "Meeting at 6 tonight for girls who dropped out of rush". Other teenagers would be too embarrassed to show up. Also, they would have to arrange something with a group that wanted to take them all on. How would they? And what would happen if the group didn't care for some of the girls?

Have you ever seen this in a small town? There's an older unmarried woman and some of the locals keep saying, "She didn't have to be single, Billy Bob and Bobby Bill wanted to marry her." She has to hear this crap the rest of her life even though both men might have been worthless crackers...why should she have to listen to people second-guessing what she felt to be the right decision for her? Why should we be playing Lofty Greeks With Insight who say, "You had the choice to be Greek, you cut the only groups who wanted you." That's horribly rude. You don't know why they cut them, you don't know why they were cut. Some people on here have been rude enough to say "your dream sororities didn't want you." How do you know? Actually at many big schools, the sororities would love to have dozens of the girls they cut but they had to cut huge numbers. Have you ever been in a room where the sorority is required to cut hundreds of girls in one night?

What gives anyone the right to decide why a teenager cuts a group? If you weren't there, you don't know.

She cut the only groups that still wanted her on pref night. We don't know why she was cut from the other groups, and no one has claimed to. But as has been pointed out, those groups that cut her wanted other girls more for some reason. She stated her reasons for cutting the groups and we pointed out that they were, in fact, coming across as very shallow reasons. She didn't disagree.

There's not harassing a PNM and there's being frank with her. If she goes into recruitment again, not considering these 2 chapters, she's cut her odds immediately. If the other chapters have to cut heavily as a rule, and these 2 don't, then she's cut her odds even MORE. Point this out doesn't mean we're ruining her life, her happiness or her recruitment.

This PNM wasn't stomped on she was given the reality check she asked for.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

She cut the only groups that still wanted her on pref night. We don't know why she was cut from the other groups, and no one has claimed to. But as has been pointed out, those groups that cut her wanted other girls more for some reason. She stated her reasons for cutting the groups and we pointed out that they were, in fact, coming across as very shallow reasons. She didn't disagree.

There's not harassing a PNM and there's being frank with her. If she goes into recruitment again, not considering these 2 chapters, she's cut her odds immediately. If the other chapters have to cut heavily as a rule, and these 2 don't, then she's cut her odds even MORE. Point this out doesn't mean we're ruining her life, her happiness or her recruitment.

This PNM wasn't stomped on she was given the reality check she asked for.

This one, no. Others, yes to the point that I am embarrassed for the NPC. A lot. Also, we have no idea if these were good, strong, smaller groups that truly wanted her or if they were the kind that I believe on GC has been described as the kind of chapter who would take anyone with ovaries. Big difference.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by carnation

This one, no. Others, yes to the point that I am embarrassed for the NPC. A lot. Also, we have no idea if these were good, strong, smaller groups that truly wanted her or if they were the kind that I believe on GC has been described as the kind of chapter who would take anyone with ovaries. Big difference.

That's fine, i just think this was the wrong thread to make that stand in, particularly since you have actually made a thread on this topic.

And this OP was of the opinion (or expressed her opinion in such a way) that these groups were the latter. No matter what the truth is, such an opinion will limit her options. And particularly as a non-member she has no idea whether those groups just struggle for numbers and cut less, or whether they do take any and all comers.

If she (or any PNM) isn't happy with her options, that's ok. But I see little reason to encourage her to eliminate options in advance no matter what the reason. She wouldn't be the first PNM to have pre-conceived notions utterly shattered and find a home with a chapter she would never have thought would fit her.

Also, there has to be a balance between treating 18 year olds like kids and like adults. They're not always great at making decisions and can be more emotional, but they also can handle honesty and think critically.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

That's fine, i just think this was the wrong thread to make that stand in, particularly since you have actually made a thread on this topic.

And this OP was of the opinion (or expressed her opinion in such a way) that these groups were the latter. No matter what the truth is, such an opinion will limit her options. And particularly as a non-member she has no idea whether those groups just struggle for numbers and cut less, or whether they do take any and all comers.

If she (or any PNM) isn't happy with her options, that's ok. But I see little reason to encourage her to eliminate options in advance no matter what the reason. She wouldn't be the first PNM to have pre-conceived notions utterly shattered and find a home with a chapter she would never have thought would fit her.

Also, there has to be a balance between treating 18 year olds like kids and like adults. They're not always great at making decisions and can be more emotional, but they also can handle honesty and think critically.

I like it when PNMs find a new home where they never would've expected one, although I believe it's often obvious when a group is taking anyone (when I rushed, there were 2 groups who invited all rushees back to every party; bad move on that campus).

I like it when teens can accept constructive criticism (do I sound like a teacher?) In the case of this particular girl, those 2 groups may well be her only options, although I have seen PNMs have a much more successful rush the second time than the first for various and sometimes unexplainable reasons.

I don't like it when adults jump on a hurting PNM, snarling at her because she cut some groups. As I said, we aren't looking over their shoulders.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by carnation

I like it when PNMs find a new home where they never would've expected one, although I believe it's often obvious when a group is taking anyone (when I rushed, there were 2 groups who invited all rushees back to every party; bad move on that campus).

I like it when teens can accept constructive criticism (do I sound like a teacher?) In the case of this particular girl, those 2 groups may well be her only options, although I have seen PNMs have a much more successful rush the second time than the first for various and sometimes unexplainable reasons.

I don't like it when adults jump on a hurting PNM, snarling at her because she cut some groups. As I said, we aren't looking over their shoulders.

Since we have no way to know what her chances are with any group our best bet is to encourage her to keep her options open. It's the best and most positive advice even if it come at the expense of questioning her reasoning for excluding groups. During/post rush, we frequently encourage the openminded-ness but don't tend to second guess or be mean to a PNM who ends up withdrawing or cutting groups she's not feeling comfortable with. It's before rush when we try to correct that.

Even groups that are recommended to make no cuts under RFM still make cuts. Ones that don't, don't last. I don't think you actually know the health of the chapter unless you're a member and you probably don't have a good idea unless you're a member of another chapter on the same campus.

Honestly the only time I see GC turn into an unchecked pack of lions is when there are obvious inconsistencies in the story that leads us to believe we're being lied to and/or trolled. Taking the GatorKate example, people first questioned the inconsistencies, THEN after it turned out the story was nothing like what was claimed the tides turned. Then we got meangirl trolled and it turned out the whole thing was bait.

So really the best way to "make us nicer" would be for the trolls to stop their "sobstory PNM" baiting. And the "pile-ons" happen just as often due to taking a while to write a post and getting beaten to the bunch as they do because the OP responds to initial well meant criticism or concern with ignorance and sarcasm.

And I don't think being the "tone" police works well, nor the "embarrassed on behalf of ____ for your behavior" argument.

[carnation]

I really don't care if people don't like my comments about their tone or what bad representatives they are of Greek life. Some of your national offices know you by your screen names (and real names) and they aren't happy. Some GCers hone in on suffering PNMs like sharks to blood and I hope all this year's crop of PNMs will read this so they'll know they could be victims.

We do have trolls and actual PNMs who act awful. They're pretty obvious and the trolls, especially, deserve what they asked for. Whole different story from confused PNMs.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by carnation

I really don't care if people don't like my comments about their tone or what bad representatives they are of Greek life. Some of your national offices know you by your screen names (and real names) and they aren't happy. Some GCers hone in on suffering PNMs like sharks to blood and I hope all this year's crop of PNMs will read this so they'll know they could be victims.

We do have trolls and actual PNMs who act awful. They're pretty obvious and the trolls, especially, deserve what they asked for. Whole different story from confused PNMs.

And we treat the confused PNMs differently.

You can use the tone/embarrassment argument all you like, it's just a bad one. I'm not ashamed of what I write here. In fact, I went back and checked through my old posts and STILL not ashamed. I'm pretty comfortable. It's really not your place to be disappointed/angry/embarrassed on that.

Leave our behavior between us and our HQs.

[carnation]

Whatever.

[epchick]

Why do some GCers only post on GC to tell others how "mean" they are.

[kddani]

Originally Posted by epchick

Why do some GCers only post on GC to tell others how "mean" they are.

Hush, you shouldn't say that. You're an embarrassment to sororities everywhere!!!