Student voted out of classroom!!!

[Senusret I]

Yes it does. Behavior needs both rewards and consequences. At the time, he was not diagnosed.

Clicking on the link 33girl provided, I see even more now that these parents have a need to be in the spotlight -- who provides the media with current pictures of their children to be displayed to strangers?

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by 33girl

ok, I read this over again, and what I get is he isn't "officially" diagnosed yet - he's in the process? MC, how long does that take?

I mean, it almost sounds like he's been having disciplinary problems and they are trying to find a disability that goes along with it.

Here's another article - while the voting was a bad idea by any stretch of the imagination, this article clarifies that it was only for the DAY - not forever.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/treasur...id=inform_artr

An hour, a day, a week, who really cares? This kid is in kindergarten, his best friend in the class voted him against him. No five year old autistic or not, no matter how bad the kid's behavior was, what this teacher did was unacceptable and she shouldn't be allowed to teach kids again as long as she lives.

[RU OX Alum]

yeah, i mean, how objective can a "vote" amongst five-year-olds be anyway?

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by 33girl

ok, I read this over again, and what I get is he isn't "officially" diagnosed yet - he's in the process? MC, how long does that take?

I mean, it almost sounds like he's been having disciplinary problems and they are trying to find a disability that goes along with it.

Here's another article - while the voting was a bad idea by any stretch of the imagination, this article clarifies that it was only for the DAY - not forever.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/treasur...id=inform_artr

What bothers me the most is that the teacher essentially asked the students to tell the boy what they thought of him...specifically what they don't like about him. We all know little kids can be mean. A kindergarten teacher should know that five year olds don't really have empathy yet...they're honest, but not very good at censoring themselves or determining what's not a good thing to say. She didn't ask them how it made them feel when Alex acted out, she asked them what they didn't like about him and what he was doing - those are two very different questions when asked to very small children, and they're going to get very different responses. And she actually called on each student and put them on the spot?

The voting is another problem (what is this, Survivor?) for a couple reasons. First, she put Alex's classmates in the role of punisher. Second, I doubt the kids (and Alex) really felt she was asking them about removing him from the classroom for the day. She may have phrased it that way, but knowing the way kids are, once they shared all their dislikes about Alex, they probably wanted to vote him out for good if they had that power. And that's certainly what Alex was left with after all was said and done.

This teacher sounds like she has NO grasp on the mind of a five year old, and no basic regard for decency. Not to mention no understanding of autism, which is surprising in this day and age when autism is being diagnosed more and more. She's the one that should be voted off the island!

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

yeah, i mean, how objective can a "vote" amongst five-year-olds be anyway?

its probably a lot worse on a five year than you say, you getting voted out of your workplace or something.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by nate2512

its probably a lot worse on a five year than you say, you getting voted out of your workplace or something.

Right, because little kids don't understand nuance or complexities of a situation like this. All this little five year old boy knows is that his friends don't like him anymore and don't want him to go to school with them.

[1908Revelations]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

I don't believe it's true, not to the extent the parent said.

<----- has been the victim of false parent complaints before.

I agree there must be more.

Me too!

What's worse are the ones where the children are 'childern of the corn' and thier parents KNOW IT, but blame me for everything as if the demons are tucked away in thier lockers.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

No, it really doesn't matter that it was only for that day. How long do you think that kid is going to remember what was done to him?

I said over and over I do NOT agree with the voting at all. I do not think the kid will ever forget this, it was effed up. I do, however, think it's important to place into context what exactly occurred and what did not - i.e. a group of 5 year olds was not permitted to permanently expel a student from a class. Any teacher who allowed that would be taken to the county mental hospital, not put on suspension.

And yeah, good call by the parents for releasing a photo to the media so if anyone ever runs into this kid they'll know who he is and can ask him all about the incident over and over again. (sarcasm)

[epchick]

MC does this type of disability show up early in a child's development? Like could the parents of this little boy have noticed it when he was younger? The mother claims he was fine in pre-school, and he had disciplinary problems at this school and at the last. Yet the principal was the one who wanted the kid tested.

[1908Revelations]

Originally Posted by epchick

MC does this type of disability show up early in a child's development? Like could the parents of this little boy have noticed it when he was younger? The mother claims he was fine in pre-school, and he had disciplinary problems at this school and at the last. Yet the principal was the one who wanted the kid tested.

Maybe teachers refered him for services and the parents denied them, but the principal may have seen that a need was ever present.

I have had a parent decline services for their student.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by 1908Revelations

Maybe teachers refered him for services and the parents denied them, but the principal may have seen that a need was ever present.

I have had a parent decline services for their student.

Maybe you're right. For some reason though, I get a feeling that teachers/principal WANTED to find something wrong with the kid.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

ok, I read this over again, and what I get is he isn't "officially" diagnosed yet - he's in the process? MC, how long does that take?

Depending on who they're going to, not necessarily long at all, once you get to the person making the diagnosis. Our son was diagnosed with ADHD in the Spring. We asked the psychologist doing the evaluation to screen for Aspergers since we strongly suspected it. She too suspected it but wanted someone more qualified in sifting through the ADHD/Aspergers/other stuff combination to evaluate for it. It took until Fall to get an appointment, but then the diagnosis was very quick (as in a matter of days).

I too got the sense that the disciplinary problems prompted the Aspergers question. I hope it was not just trying to put a label on him but rather the principal concerned that what she was seeing were in fact symptoms of Aspergers.

Originally Posted by 33girl

Yes it does - the first article makes it sound like a teacher and 16 5 year olds are allowed to in effect expel a student! That just makes no sense but it does make the article more sensationalistic.

I'll agree as to how the article portrayed it. But speaking from the parent's perspective, it really doesn't make a difference if it was for a day or the rest of the year. If the kid really does have autism/Aspergers, then the trouble a normal kid would have understanding that it was just for a day will likely be amplified a great deal. These kids think literally and in absolutes -- either they like me or they hate me, either I'm in school or I've been kicked out of school. There is no in-between, no shade of meaning. Our son is still working on this.

Originally Posted by epchick

MC does this type of disability show up early in a child's development? Like could the parents of this little boy have noticed it when he was younger? The mother claims he was fine in pre-school, and he had disciplinary problems at this school and at the last. Yet the principal was the one who wanted the kid tested.

Usually signs start to present themselves by about 3; in fact, I think the diagnosis requires that symptoms be present by then.

That said, it's not unusual in my experience for the diagnosis to come in elementary school. This is so for a couple of reasons -- sometimes the symptoms can be written off as something else before the pressures of school come, sometimes (often) parents really don't want to face the prospect of an autism spectrum diagnosis and resist until they really can't anymore. We knew something was "off" around 3, but he was 9 when he was diagnosed. We weren't ignoring things during those years; it just took that long for us to see what really seemed to be going on.

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by nate2512

An hour, a day, a week, who really cares? This kid is in kindergarten, his best friend in the class voted him against him. No five year old autistic or not, no matter how bad the kid's behavior was, what this teacher did was unacceptable and she shouldn't be allowed to teach kids again as long as she lives.

Wow for the first time ever i completly agree with your stance on an issue. . . This scares me. . . Greatly

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by Nanners52674

Wow for the first time ever i completly agree with your stance on an issue. . . This scares me. . . Greatly

ha, its not too bad. I apologize but i tend to be very opinionated.

From the 2nd article posted

...Portillo told police that Alex had twice been removed from her class that day for misbehaving. She said he threw his crayons and was lying on the classroom floor, kicking the tables while other students worked on their assignments. A school resource officer, who responded to the classroom, said he saw Alex under a table....

...A school resource officer at Morningside wrote in the police report that he often works with Alex at a desk in the school office. He noted that Alex does well one-on-one, but will tear up his homework, kick the wall and lie on the floor when no one is paying attention to him.

Ok, I'm not making excuses for the teacher, but this is what it sounds like to me.

1. This kid was having a really bad day
2. His documented behavior was a disruption to his classmates learning environment and he was sent out.
3. It sounds like it's a consistent thing that this kid needs constant one-on-one attention to get work done
4. After sending the kid out, he was returned to class, at that point the teacher did this whole "vote" thing which to me, reads as follows:
   
   
   1. The teacher wanted the student to know how his behavior affected his classmates, hence the whole, "tell him what you don't like about him"
   2. The vote was not "Should he be allowed in our class", it was "should he be allowed in RIGHT NOW. Which indicates to me she was hinting that maybe he needed more time to cool off, reflect on his actions, etc.
   
   

Now, I don't have a Spec. Ed degree or certification, so I can't speak to how this situation would affect the kid's psyche. I also don't think that kids at that age have a good idea of the consequences of their actions, let alone how it would affect someone else, so the idea of trying to "shame" him into better behavior using critiques of his peers is most likely not appropriate. Do I agree with the steps the teacher used? I'd agree with it for my classes of HS freshman and sophomores but not for kids that young.

All that being said, does this teacher have a SPED cert? If not, in my opinion, its not entirely fair to paint her with a broad brush, just because she's not up to date with the Autism Spectrum. I took one class in the Ed School addressing SPED kids. To be honest, if I wanted to work in a classroom with SPED kids, I'd have pursued that endorsement. I have a student in one of my classes that is autistic, and it is a daily drain on me. He exhibits some of the same behavior as this student, if I'm standing over him, working with him exclusively, I can get work done. The second I move away, he's off task. Fortunately, he's in my smallest class so I can spend more one-on-one time with him, but if he was in some of my larger, more boisterous classes, heaven knows how it would go.

Which is why I'm not a huge fan of Inclusion. I wasn't when I was a PE major and I'm still not as a classroom teacher. I understand that children with disabilities have the right to receive the highest quality education that their disability allows, but when it comes at the detriment of their classmates, who is that fair to? If a kid goes to a resource room for English and Math instruction, why should they be placed in a Science or Social Studies classroom, where those skills are essential parts of the instruction? Just my feelings.

Kitso
KS 361