Wisconsin Capitol Building's "Holiday Tree"

[Taualumna]

It's happened in Toronto before. And last year, a judge ordered a tree removed from a courthouse lobby.

[skylark]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Well, most of your Jewish friends aren't allowed to write the word "G-d" so your point, while well intentioned, is laughably short-sighted.

Not all jewish people believe that this applies to "god" in english. My own understanding was that most jewish people think it is fine, but that might be because the jewish people I know tend to be on the more non-orthodox side. Jews that believe writing "god" is okay believe that the rule about not writing "god" down only applies in the ancient hebrew text. http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse...tqak&offset=10

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by skylark

Not all jewish people believe that this applies to "god" in english. My own understanding was that most jewish people think it is fine, but that might be because the jewish people I know tend to be on the more non-orthodox side. Jews that believe writing "god" is okay believe that the rule about not writing "god" down only applies in the ancient hebrew text. http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse...tqak&offset=10

I think you likely understand that my point stands as an example of why saying something as inane as "ALL RELIGIONS SAY GOD SO IT'S NOT CHRISTIAN!" absolutely is not correct, considering the founding of the nation and the fact that, indeed, other religions do not refer to God in that way. "Most" may have been an overstatement, though, I'll agree.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

It's happened in Toronto before. And last year, a judge ordered a tree removed from a courthouse lobby.

It's happening again this year in Ottawa.

Choir drops 'Christmas' from carol
Teachers' Decision; Children to sing: 'Soon it will be festive day"

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_p...html?id=181191

[skylark]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I think you likely understand that my point stands as an example of why saying something as inane as "ALL RELIGIONS SAY GOD SO IT'S NOT CHRISTIAN!" absolutely is not correct, considering the founding of the nation and the fact that, indeed, other religions do not refer to God in that way. "Most" may have been an overstatement, though, I'll agree.

I think that maybe we're dealing with something that is not as black and white as saying "all religions say god so it's not christian" (which I don't think anyone said on this thread, but is your summary of either mine or sageoface's comments). I agree that while the statement "in god we trust" may have originally been referring to a christian god (and acknowledged such in my earlier post)... but the government making such a statement does not carry with it the overt christian symbolism as a christmas tree or nativity scene. I tend to think that the sentiments expressed in the phrase "in god we trust" are consistent with most other religions, since most acknowledge a higher power. In contrast, the sentiments expressed by say, mary holding a baby jesus, is not an idea that is interchangeable with other religions.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

You messed it up.




C'mon guy - get with your Internet memes. I realize you're soon to enter the high-stakes world of family law, but you're not "Old Out of Touch Guy" yet, brotha!

My bad.

[sageofages]

Originally Posted by skylark

I think that maybe we're dealing with something that is not as black and white as saying "all religions say god so it's not christian" (which I don't think anyone said on this thread, but is your summary of either mine or sageoface's comments). I agree that while the statement "in god we trust" may have originally been referring to a christian god (and acknowledged such in my earlier post)... but the government making such a statement does not carry with it the overt christian symbolism as a christmas tree or nativity scene. I tend to think that the sentiments expressed in the phrase "in god we trust" are consistent with most other religions, since most acknowledge a higher power. In contrast, the sentiments expressed by say, mary holding a baby jesus, is not an idea that is interchangeable with other religions.

Actually I think the founding fathers were very insightful in acknowledging a higher power "god" but to not delineate a specific "god". Government must grow to meet the needs of the entire population to be effective.

Yes they all were "christian" but the range of denominational belief is great.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Foundin..._Religion.html

Religious Affiliation
of U.S. Founding Fathers - # of Founding Fathers - % of Founding Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican - 88 - 54.7%
Presbyterian - 30 - 18.6%
Congregationalist - 27 - 16.8%
Quaker - 7 - 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/
German Reformed - 6 - 3.7%
Lutheran - 5 - 3.1%
Catholic - 3 - 1.9%
Huguenot - 3 - 1.9%
Unitarian - 3 - 1.9%
Methodist - 2 - 1.2%
Calvinist - 1 - 0.6%
TOTAL 204

Founding Father defined as one or more of the following:
- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by Lady Pi Phi

It's happening again this year in Ottawa.

Choir drops 'Christmas' from carol
Teachers' Decision; Children to sing: 'Soon it will be festive day"

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_p...html?id=181191

"Silver Bells" also has the line "It's Christmas time in the city..." No mention of whether they sang "It's FESTIVE time in the city"

If they wanted to be more inclusive, they could have sung:

Frosty the Snowman
Jingle Bells
Winter Wonderland
Sleigh Ride

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sageofages

Actually I think the founding fathers were very insightful in acknowledging a higher power "god" but to not delineate a specific "god". Government must grow to meet the needs of the entire population to be effective.

Yes they all were "christian" but the range of denominational belief is great.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Foundin..._Religion.html

Religious Affiliation
of U.S. Founding Fathers - # of Founding Fathers - % of Founding Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican - 88 - 54.7%
Presbyterian - 30 - 18.6%
Congregationalist - 27 - 16.8%
Quaker - 7 - 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/
German Reformed - 6 - 3.7%
Lutheran - 5 - 3.1%
Catholic - 3 - 1.9%
Huguenot - 3 - 1.9%
Unitarian - 3 - 1.9%
Methodist - 2 - 1.2%
Calvinist - 1 - 0.6%
TOTAL 204

I don't disagree, but I think we lose something in translation in our efforts to fit the Founding Fathers into 2007 America - namely, that the language used is very Masonic, and likely was not intended to be open in the fashion that we consider it (although the basis of the founding of America would dictate openness to a certain degree, as well).

Here's the rub, though - the overwhelming majority, if not all (I'm not sure how we consider Calvinism nowadays to be honest) of those are indeed Christian, and the founding of the nation was intended to allow freedom to worship, but generally the freedom to worship whichever Christian God you choose. That's well and good, but it just doesn't apply to modern America - using the nation's founding as any sort of crutch on either side of this discussion seems difficult, if not impossible.

In God We Trust just really doesn't work for this particular argument, for that reason - if we're going to be "open" we can't rely on the word "God" to do our work for us. Many religions, including some practiced by hundreds of millions worldwide, don't fit the Christian ideal of "God" in that sense. I do apologize for being "snippy" before, but I think this may more accurately reflect my point here.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

If non-Christians don't want to deal with Christmas, they're a little screwed. I mean, is it offensive for me to put Christmas lights on my house because my neighbor might be a JW or Atheist? I had a roommate who was a passionate Atheist, but she put up a Christmas tree and lights. (Yes, I know, weird.) I just don't know if anyone HATES Christianity/Christmas THAT MUCH that it would make them tense or offended.

I'm not talking about non-Christians not wanting to deal with Christmas, I'm talking about them feeling pressured NOT to be able to celebrate/talk about/etc. their own holidays. I don't think a non-Christian in my office would feel comfortable talking about what they got for Hanukkah. It's not about limiting the majority, but about being aware of the minority. I'm still getting felt out by my coworkers as at least one of them isn't quite sure about the whole "Catholic" thing.

Originally Posted by Cardinal026

I like this also. I'm a government contractor, and work with a lot of federal government employees. For the two years I've been on my project, at Christmas our office is decorated by people who want to. There's mini Christmas trees, there are still menorahs up with blue battery-operated lights, and in the fall, our muslim co-workers invited us to stay after to feast for Ramadan. I like all the diversity and culture, and no one seems to be offended since if they felt their culture wasn't represented - they could just bring something in also.

This is what I'm talking about. Awesome open environment.

[1908Revelations]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

Everyone knows it's a Christmas tree- it would have been better not to have one at all, rather than calling it a Holiday Tree or whatever it is.

Thank you kindly!

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

Stuff like this make me want to vomit. I hate that everyone in America is so set on making minorities (religious, and other) feel "comfortable" that we isolate the majority.
Everyone knows it's a Christmas tree- it would have been better not to have one at all, rather than calling it a Holiday Tree or whatever it is.

Amen! (oops, hope I didn't offend anyone with that.)

But at the same time- don't let it get you down.

In my personal experience, the VAST majority of people in this country have no problem with Christmas trees or being wished a Merry Christmas etc. And on the same note, I as a Christian have no trouble attending ceremonies of other religions or being greeted with seasonal tidings that pertain to other religious holidays.

It is always an honor to be greeted in the manner or included in the experience of a person's religion, and I treat it as such and am thankful for the sign of friendship it indicates.

The people who really fight these battles are, in my experience, in some way very unhappy with their own failed lives and this is how they can inflict themselves on everyone else and feel like they have power- and they do it because they realize they have noone to blame but themselves for their misery.

A dark thought perhaps, but one I keep in mind when I hear stories like this lest I get pulled into those people's own sense of paranoid hatred and start assuming all non-Christians are out to get us, when in fact it is just a few people who are so unhappy with themselves they will settle for sharing a little of their misery with anyone.

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Amen! (oops, hope I didn't offend anyone with that.)

But at the same time- don't let it get you down.

In my personal experience, the VAST majority of people in this country have no problem with Christmas trees or being wished a Merry Christmas etc. And on the same note, I as a Christian have no trouble attending ceremonies of other religions or being greeted with seasonal tidings that pertain to other religious holidays.

It is always an honor to be greeted in the manner or included in the experience of a person's religion, and I treat it as such and am thankful for the sign of friendship it indicates.

The people who really fight these battles are, in my experience, in some way very unhappy with their own failed lives and this is how they can inflict themselves on everyone else and feel like they have power- and they do it because they realize they have noone to blame but themselves for their misery.

A dark thought perhaps, but one I keep in mind when I hear stories like this lest I get pulled into those people's own sense of paranoid hatred and start assuming all non-Christians are out to get us, when in fact it is just a few people who are so unhappy with themselves they will settle for sharing a little of their misery with anyone.

Well said.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Amen! (oops, hope I didn't offend anyone with that.)

The people who really fight these battles are, in my experience, in some way very unhappy with their own failed lives and this is how they can inflict themselves on everyone else and feel like they have power- and they do it because they realize they have noone to blame but themselves for their misery.

A dark thought perhaps, but one I keep in mind when I hear stories like this lest I get pulled into those people's own sense of paranoid hatred and start assuming all non-Christians are out to get us, when in fact it is just a few people who are so unhappy with themselves they will settle for sharing a little of their misery with anyone.

All it takes is one person the feel "uncomfy" to ruin Christmas for the masses. It's not my fault your crazy mother raised you Jehova's Witness and you never got a Sega Genesis on Dec 25. The squeakiest wheel gets the oil I guess. And i'm sorry, but anyone who says that America wasn't founded as a Christian nation is just lost in life. Just my opinion.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

And i'm sorry, but anyone who says that America wasn't founded as a Christian nation is just lost in life. Just my opinion.

Well then guess I lost in life then... see silly me thought that America was founded on Deist principles rejecting the idea of a "Christian" nation since it only lead to conflict between the various denominations, splinter sects, those who rejected the idea of a "Christian God" (but not God), and since many of those living in the colonies had fled religious persecution - you know the Enlightenment principles of no state religion but a belief in a higher being that those silly Founding Fathers wrote about?