Hazing. Is it necessary?

[Prince_of_KS]

I am new school I guess you would say. I say I was hazed but on such a small scale, but for hte most part we were not hazed. I do think that hazing is a good idea but with some caution in mind. I think helps in a manhood, brotherhood combination for trust and loyalty

[Tom Earp]

Regardless. Hazing is not good by GLO Standards via All GLOs Web Sites.

While We may not think of it that way, that is the way it is.

Either do what HQs say, that is really the way. If Your HQ does not agree witrh that then someone is in trouble!

[shinerbock]

National GLO's are killing the greek system. I understand some of their obligations, but it'd be nice if we could somehow distribute the liability in order to allow local groups to act more as their own entity.

[macallan25]

I hate nationals

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

National GLO's are killing the greek system. I understand some of their obligations, but it'd be nice if we could somehow distribute the liability in order to allow local groups to act more as their own entity.

Not really. My chapter operates on a campus where many other groups do haze, and they haze pretty hard. It's part of the culture here in Oklahoma, and it's what kids expect when they come through Rush.

On one hand, we do let them know that we don't haze. On the other hand, pledging is still no picnic. We follow the rules, we keep them busy, and I absolutely feel that they earn their letters while developing a strong appreciation for our chapter, and the organization at large.

Without hazing, our chapter does pretty well on a campus where hazing is (or at least was when I was there) the norm.

It's absolutely true that hazing works. Fortunately, so do other things. Paintballing, ropes courses, sports, all of those things bring those classes together.

We're still very selective, we put plenty of guys into campus leadership positions, do well in intramurals, Greek Week, etc. We do it without hazing though, in any way shape or form. Anything that the pledge marshal does is vetted through our hazing policy.

So does hazing work? Sure. Is it absolutely necessary? Not from what I've seen.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by jessicaelaine

For me, the difference is that, as the example about the old Bavarian horn thing, that club was about hunting, so yeah, the members should know how to hunt.

You have raised an excellent point- and one I should have elaborated on earlier.

In the hunting horn example I provided, becoming an accomplished hunter was the ultimate goal- along with being part of a social club of hunters.

So the "hazing" in that story was geared toward a specific purpose. It was dangerous- far more dangerous than what many pledges go through- but it served a valid purpose, and in a context of a faraway time it has a certain "rite of passage" sense about it that I think many who reject college fraternity hazing would appreciate and understand.

And so the obvious question is, what is the fraternity going to do for you if you pledge? What does your association with this house mean? What does the brotherhood care about?

If the goals are right- then I think the hazing will naturally tend to take a better course (except for isolated incidents as I have mentioned above.)

Many top fraternity chapters- even at "party schools"- that haze and have the best parties with top sororities are stringent in their GPA requirements and in how their pledges and brothers behave towards ladies. Some also put emphasis on philanthropy and intramural sports. Being old skool does not mean a brotherhood fails to consider the world outside the sphere of existence 3 feet around a keg of beer.

However, many fraternity chapters (and sororities) are all about getting wasted and finding someone to spend the night with.

Consider both of those scenarios.

And then consider that hazing as defined by law (i.e.- including forced study hours and other things that are in no way detrimental to a pledge) is a vital part of the bonding process that makes a brotherhood.

If you find out the reputation of the fraternities you seek to join before you rush (a very important thing to do), then you have some idea of what the brotherhood over there is really all about.

And then I think you can anticipate very clearly the kind of hazing you might possibly face (again keeping in mind I am talking the full legal definition- not just the really bad stuff that is truly hazing) and what purpose it will serve.

All that said, DeltAlum and Tom Earp bring up the very real fact that hazing in all forms is against the law. There are good sides to this, and there are also practical realities.

But I think hazing is over-sensationalized and has become so absurdly defined that it misses the real problem, and creates an additional problem by making a true brotherhood that really means something nearly impossible to achieve within the confines of the rules.

The real goal is to recruit people who will promote a balanced brotherhood that stresses academics (fraternity houses SHOULD exceed the all-men's GPA at their schools, sororities too for the all-women's GPA), philanthropy (the duty of all men and women who can afford to drop several thousand dollars a year on a Greek membership), and being respectful people ready to enter the work environment as leaders.

The parties and fun times are a given- all college kids do that to whatever extent they want- but the other should be stressed too.

Being a Greek is about preparing to be a leader. One of the best lessons I learned in my fraternity was the art of having a big fight with a fellow brother in chapter meeting over a proposed rule or pledge- and then being able to go have a beer with him and watch the game 30 minutes later. This has nothing to do with how much I got hazed, but about what our brotherhood considered important and how the behavior of the actives helped mold all of us when we were pledges.

If a brotherhood has a more balanced goal in mind and purpose, then the really dangerous hazing incidents become less problematic (though they are already fairly rare) and there is no need to hold difficult-to-enforce and inappropriate laws over the heads of every member of the Greek Community.

Hazing is a reflection of the members of a chapter. If those members like to party, but also care about getting good grades and being successful in their careers- then they aren't going to sadistically torture pledges or take up so much of their time that the pledges can't do well in their classes.

But we are a privileged minority with a media that does not like us. So it is up to us to go out of our way to fix this mess. I ride off-road motorcycles and we have the same trouble. No politician is going to defend our rights to make responsible use of public lands for riding (we police our own behavior pretty strictly in riding clubs) because there are so few of us and a loud screaming environmental movement on the other side who are playing on power and emotion instead of facts.

Greeks face the same reality. It would be ideal to get rid of hazing laws. The most serious forms of hazing that demand legal action are already covered under criminal law- alcohol possession, assault etc. So we don't need a law that covers all the things which should not be criminal in a voluntary organization.

But good luck finding a politician to vote for that bill when the other side is going to bring out a weeping mother who lost a child. That mother has every right to be upset, but it is an unfair incarnation of an isolated incident that is designed to force the will of one segment of America on a smaller segment.

The actual enforcement of hazing law suggests that my view is shared by most- even though they cannot afford to publicly admit it (which I respect- my presence here is anonymous precisely so I can speak freely)- but it would be nice if we did not all have to do this dance.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

Not really. My chapter operates on a campus where many other groups do haze, and they haze pretty hard. It's part of the culture here in Oklahoma, and it's what kids expect when they come through Rush.

On one hand, we do let them know that we don't haze. On the other hand, pledging is still no picnic. We follow the rules, we keep them busy, and I absolutely feel that they earn their letters while developing a strong appreciation for our chapter, and the organization at large.

Without hazing, our chapter does pretty well on a campus where hazing is (or at least was when I was there) the norm.

It's absolutely true that hazing works. Fortunately, so do other things. Paintballing, ropes courses, sports, all of those things bring those classes together.

We're still very selective, we put plenty of guys into campus leadership positions, do well in intramurals, Greek Week, etc. We do it without hazing though, in any way shape or form. Anything that the pledge marshal does is vetted through our hazing policy.

I am pretty sure hazing is pretty non-existent at OU. FIJI does pretty hard, but that is about it as far as I know. SAE doesn't at all. They do house cleans and that is it.

...I was also told that Sigma Nu is one of the worst houses on campus. It may have not been like that when you were there. But it is now.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I am pretty sure hazing is pretty non-existent at OU. FIJI does pretty hard, but that is about it as far as I know. SAE doesn't at all. They do house cleans and that is it.

...I was also told that Sigma Nu is one of the worst houses on campus. It may have not been like that when you were there. But it is now.

I didn't go to OU.

I went to Central Oklahoma. Enrollment there is about 15,000. There are six fraternities, average size is probably around 35. The guys at OU should be doing a little better in the future. The alums just dumped about 1.5 million into the house, it's pretty nice. A few good rushes, and they'll be back. They have the financial resources to compete with anyone.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I am pretty sure hazing is pretty non-existent at OU. FIJI does pretty hard, but that is about it as far as I know. SAE doesn't at all. They do house cleans and that is it.

When you say hazing is pretty non-existent, do you mean in terms of hazing as defined by law or hazing in terms of what someone Greek might think? (which in itself can vary greatly)

Just wanted to clarify and ask all who post here to please indicate how you define hazing since it will help all to understand where posters are coming from.

[macallan25]

I would say someone who is Greek might think. I'm sure you know what that probobly entails.....especially being at UGA and Texas.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I would say someone who is Greek might think. I'm sure you know what that probobly entails.....especially being at UGA and Texas.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by macallan25

...I was also told that Sigma Nu is one of the worst houses on campus. It may have not been like that when you were there. But it is now.

One of the things that most of us agree on -- or at least used to -- is that it's really bad form to trash talk another persons fraternity, sorority or chapter thereof.

[PhrozenGod01]

One of the things that most of us agree on -- or at least used to -- is that it's really bad form to trash talk another persons fraternity, sorority or chapter thereof.

I still agree on that. It just makes you look bad, especially if you were just "told" about someone else's opinion. It really flushes away any kind of intelligence or credibility you may have once had. Most problems in any Greek system come from uneducated gossipers who don't know when to stop yapping.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

You have raised an excellent point- and one I should have elaborated on earlier.

In the hunting horn example I provided, becoming an accomplished hunter was the ultimate goal- along with being part of a social club of hunters.

So the "hazing" in that story was geared toward a specific purpose. It was dangerous- far more dangerous than what many pledges go through- but it served a valid purpose, and in a context of a faraway time it has a certain "rite of passage" sense about it that I think many who reject college fraternity hazing would appreciate and understand.

And so the obvious question is, what is the fraternity going to do for you if you pledge? What does your association with this house mean? What does the brotherhood care about?

If the goals are right- then I think the hazing will naturally tend to take a better course (except for isolated incidents as I have mentioned above.)

Many top fraternity chapters- even at "party schools"- that haze and have the best parties with top sororities are stringent in their GPA requirements and in how their pledges and brothers behave towards ladies. Some also put emphasis on philanthropy and intramural sports. Being old skool does not mean a brotherhood fails to consider the world outside the sphere of existence 3 feet around a keg of beer.

However, many fraternity chapters (and sororities) are all about getting wasted and finding someone to spend the night with.

Consider both of those scenarios.

And then consider that hazing as defined by law (i.e.- including forced study hours and other things that are in no way detrimental to a pledge) is a vital part of the bonding process that makes a brotherhood.

If you find out the reputation of the fraternities you seek to join before you rush (a very important thing to do), then you have some idea of what the brotherhood over there is really all about.

And then I think you can anticipate very clearly the kind of hazing you might possibly face (again keeping in mind I am talking the full legal definition- not just the really bad stuff that is truly hazing) and what purpose it will serve.

All that said, DeltAlum and Tom Earp bring up the very real fact that hazing in all forms is against the law. There are good sides to this, and there are also practical realities.

But I think hazing is over-sensationalized and has become so absurdly defined that it misses the real problem, and creates an additional problem by making a true brotherhood that really means something nearly impossible to achieve within the confines of the rules.

The real goal is to recruit people who will promote a balanced brotherhood that stresses academics (fraternity houses SHOULD exceed the all-men's GPA at their schools, sororities too for the all-women's GPA), philanthropy (the duty of all men and women who can afford to drop several thousand dollars a year on a Greek membership), and being respectful people ready to enter the work environment as leaders.

The parties and fun times are a given- all college kids do that to whatever extent they want- but the other should be stressed too.

Being a Greek is about preparing to be a leader. One of the best lessons I learned in my fraternity was the art of having a big fight with a fellow brother in chapter meeting over a proposed rule or pledge- and then being able to go have a beer with him and watch the game 30 minutes later. This has nothing to do with how much I got hazed, but about what our brotherhood considered important and how the behavior of the actives helped mold all of us when we were pledges.

If a brotherhood has a more balanced goal in mind and purpose, then the really dangerous hazing incidents become less problematic (though they are already fairly rare) and there is no need to hold difficult-to-enforce and inappropriate laws over the heads of every member of the Greek Community.

Hazing is a reflection of the members of a chapter. If those members like to party, but also care about getting good grades and being successful in their careers- then they aren't going to sadistically torture pledges or take up so much of their time that the pledges can't do well in their classes.

But we are a privileged minority with a media that does not like us. So it is up to us to go out of our way to fix this mess. I ride off-road motorcycles and we have the same trouble. No politician is going to defend our rights to make responsible use of public lands for riding (we police our own behavior pretty strictly in riding clubs) because there are so few of us and a loud screaming environmental movement on the other side who are playing on power and emotion instead of facts.

Greeks face the same reality. It would be ideal to get rid of hazing laws. The most serious forms of hazing that demand legal action are already covered under criminal law- alcohol possession, assault etc. So we don't need a law that covers all the things which should not be criminal in a voluntary organization.

But good luck finding a politician to vote for that bill when the other side is going to bring out a weeping mother who lost a child. That mother has every right to be upset, but it is an unfair incarnation of an isolated incident that is designed to force the will of one segment of America on a smaller segment.

The actual enforcement of hazing law suggests that my view is shared by most- even though they cannot afford to publicly admit it (which I respect- my presence here is anonymous precisely so I can speak freely)- but it would be nice if we did not all have to do this dance.

True that it is a long post, but is more true than many want to appreiate.

We as Social GLOs are under the gun from many saides and it is up to us to make the changes now before thay are made for us with more and more stringent rules and higher costs.

We hear everyday about Chapters being close and for what? HAZING.

Who does it benefit?

Not the Chapters who are closed and the PNMs who may join and make that Chapter grow.

HQs as they bare called are ruled by the Members who are those Brothers?Sisters who vote on the rules and regulations.

i cna only speak for LXA, but, I am sure most if not all HQs have a admentment in their Rules and regulations about hazing.

Either follow what you fellow Brother/Sisters voted on or you will be gone.

So, as I stated above, who loses?

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

One of the things that most of us agree on -- or at least used to -- is that it's really bad form to trash talk another persons fraternity, sorority or chapter thereof.

I really don't care. Sigma Nu at OU is horrible. Kind of like DKE here at Texas......which is awful too. If someone gets butthurt over me talking about the bad chapters at different schools.......then they need to seriously grow a pair.

Sorry, but I am not one to say , "oh......well......some chapters are good in their own respects. Each chapter on campus is better in some ways than others."

....bullshit. The bad chapters are bad. All-around bad.


Besides all of this....I wasn't trash talking his fraternity. Sigma Nu is pretty badass at a couple big SEC schools if I am not mistaken. I know they are one of the tops at Ole Miss.