Blacks & AIDS Newsweek Cover Story

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Wolfman
Brother, that is a stupefying assertion, akin to Jesus saying that the sick, the poor and the demon possessed wasn't his business. His job was to get to the cross as quick as possible. But once we realize that His mission was to destroy the work of the enemy, which held sway over all the nation (and the world) and not just a certain sphere, then we see the wholistic mission of the Kingdon of God. When we look at the church as some sort of sociocultural or political institution then we denude it, and transform it into what human beings want it to be for our own purposes. This is similar to what the slave owners said when they and their supporting pastors asserted that the church was to save the slave's souls so that we could use them as chattel, obeying God.Our ancestors knew this was a lie, revealed to them from God, and stood in the truth of God.

I see your point and I appreciate it greatly. My comments were based strictly on the comments from the article. To use your analogy from a previous post, Jesus often used a two pronged approach to dealing with issues of day. One for the aggrieved and one for the actor/observer. When you mentioned the story of the adulterous woman, Jesus first dealt with the actions of her accusers, then with the action of the woman which precipitated the need for his intervention. People often lose focus of his secondary action which was just as important. After Jesus' rebuke of her accusers, he told her to "go forth and sin no more".

It is the same with AIDs. The Church already provides for the end of AIDS transmission. Obeying God's commandments (not that I do or am perfect, but we know what the "wages of sin" are when we take that chance).

The Church is always called on to make a stand against social injustice because it is immoral. I'm not saying that the church should not be involved in the fight against AIDS. My statements are based upon how those in the article blame the Church.

Explain to me how the Church is responsible for Alijah's condition as mention in the article?

Is Jesus magnified by a Minister teaching his congregation how to put on condoms? Is that the advice that he gave the adulterous woman?. No, he told her to change her behavior if she wanted to avoid death.

Our people suffer not only for lack of knowledge, but because we are a stubborn and stiff-necked generation.



P.S. Don't get it twisted. Doggystyle is not a moralist, a holy roller, nor a perfect person. I'm a sinner too. More than some, less than others. I just like to argue the facts

[ladygreek]

Between Wolfman and Doggy the intellectual stimulation has gone through the roof. Kudos.

My response will not be from a biblical perspective, because very honestly I am not a student of the Bible. My perceptions are as long-time AIDS volunteer. (Doggy knows where I am coming from.)

Over the years I have seen the church react in both extremes--as a haven for homosexuality relationships (albeit behind somewhat closed doors, but still the vehicle through which sexual relationships were formed) and as a intensely homophobic institution. I believe, from what I have seen, that the church has taken strides in settling down in the middle. I see more AIDS ministries and collaborations in getting the prevention message out. I see more ministering to those affected by AIDS without fire and brimstone judgment.

A lot of this is because of the Balm in Gilead and the trainings it has provided to churches over the years. Personally, I am pleased with the progress I have seen with churches stepping up to the plate. Is there still more they can do--sure, but imo they are getting there.

Now as for the whole article itself--it shows that we need ALL of the institutions of the Black community to fight this pandemic--not just the churches.

[Wolfman]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
I see your point and I appreciate it greatly. My comments were based strictly on the comments from the article. To use your analogy from a previous post, Jesus often used a two pronged approach to dealing with issues of day. One for the aggrieved and one for the actor/observer. When you mentioned the story of the adulterous woman, Jesus first dealt with the actions of her accusers, then with the action of the woman which precipitated the need for his intervention. People often lose focus of his secondary action which was just as important. After Jesus' rebuke of her accusers, he told her to "go forth and sin no more".

It is the same with AIDs. The Church already provides for the end of AIDS transmission. Obeying God's commandments (not that I do or am perfect, but we know what the "wages of sin" are when we take that chance).

The Church is always called on to make a stand against social injustice because it is immoral. I'm not saying that the church should not be involved in the fight against AIDS. My statements are based upon how those in the article blame the Church.

Explain to me how the Church is responsible for Alijah's condition as mention in the article?

Is Jesus magnified by a Minister teaching his congregation how to put on condoms? Is that the advice that he gave the adulterous woman?. No, he told her to change her behavior if she wanted to avoid death.

Our people suffer not only for lack of knowledge, but because we are a stubborn and stiff-necked generation.



P.S. Don't get it twisted. Doggystyle is not a moralist, a holy roller, nor a perfect person. I'm a sinner too. More than some, less than others. I just like to argue the facts

Bruh, I undestand what you are saying. It's a no-brainer on one level; but if this was about people doing what they know is right, then we'd be living in Paradise! The truth is that me, you and everyone else is living in a fallen world and there is an Enemy out actively at work to trip us up, and keep people in darkness. Are we still responsible--yes! But, just as God put leather skins on Adam and Even after the Fall, signifying His care for them in their state of separation from Him, we don't have to give up on those who are "blind." As a previous poster stated, this disease, like all sin, doesn't discriminate. You don't have to be guilty of sexual sin to be infected, like the wife of the pastor I spoke about. There are people who think they are safe when they are not due t someone else's actions. God's will life, for everyone, good and bad alike, just as He blessed all with His natural bounty, even those who don't believe in Him or curse His name. He is loving beyond our comprehension. Everybody is not "saved" and willing to be moved by moral suasion, so I'm not necessarily against the use of condoms. It's no answer--not at all, but a recognition that this is very serious public health issue that, as in Africa, can have almost genocidal effects. Peace!

[AXEAM]

Doggy
I have to agree w/what you said I believe it's about some members of the gay lifestyle wanting acceptance it's not the job of the church to help one cope w/sin but to help one turn away from sin.

Wolf

I respect what you have to say I just happen not to agree w/ it.

[Wolfman]

Originally posted by AXEAM
Doggy
I have to agree w/what you said I believe it's about some members of the gay lifestyle wanting acceptance it's not the job of the church to help one cope w/sin but to help one turn away from sin.

Wolf

I respect what you have to say I just happen not to agree w/ it.

Bro. Axeam-
These "issues" need not be conflated. There are all kinds of agendas that people have in the AIDS/HIV arena. Some, as you say, push for a pro-Gay lifestyle and others to use this as a political fear tactic for certain conservative political goals. What the real issue is is this: what we are doing as communities of faith to help the suffering and bringing clarity to the problem and solutions to bear, which do include a pointed moral/spiritual critique. The irony of this is is just as long as we simply frame the AIDS/HIV crisis as a "Gay" issue our community is put more at risk, because it gives some the false comfort that it's not their problem, or it has to do with some group that is sinful thus we can, with spiritual/moral authority, distance ourselves from it. In reality, the HIV/AIDS epidemic is spreading fastest among African American women, and this is the harbinger of a situation that has the making of a mulitdemensional crisis in our community of epic proportions, just as it is in Africa, where this is not a "Gay" phenomenon. If the church doesn't really want to engage this proactively as it should now, it will have to later in a horrific way.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Wolfman
Bro. Axeam-
If the church doesn't really want to engage this proactively as it should now, it will have to later in a horrific way.

My good Brother, can you enumerate your solutions/action plans for a proactive approach by the church that is in line with sound Biblical Doctrine. I would be interested in them.

[Wolfman]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
My good Brother, can you enumerate your solutions/action plans for a proactive approach by the church that is in line with sound Biblical Doctrine. I would be interested in them.

I'm not who works in this area but I do think that this has to be a multifaceted approach;for it's much deeper than an HIV/AIDS issue. The HIV/AIDS epidemic in the African American community is piggy backing on some deep social pathologies, providing fertile ground for chaotic sexual behaviour and other things. That's the major point I was making. It's as much about the break up and dissolution of the family and lack of sound parenting practices, where values of love, self-esteem based on people created in God's image, the wide availability of drugs, unemployment and the plight of the black male and prison indistrial complex, and the cultural decay associated with certain forms of popular culture. Nature abhors vacuums. Into this "wilderness" of anomie especially in many urban, inner city settings, this is where this epidemic can spread. I urge you to read the essay on male-female relationships in the excellent book, Rituals of Blood, by Orlando Patterson (Harvard sociologist) who tackles this state of sexual mores in the black community on an attitudinal level.

Now, what is "biblical." It's got to be more than a buzz word! Just proof texting the Bible does not constititue something being biblical. Sound doctrine and praxis is based on a deep reading of the narrative saga of the Bible and the overarching story of what God has done. Jesus reserved his harshest critique for those whose modus operandi was the "holiness" of Israel, the Pharisees. To them holiness comes from separating oneself from the contagion of sin and evil, thereby puttting oneself in position for God's blessing. Jesus, following in the path of many apocalyptic-minded Jews, as his /cousin/mentor John, taught that Satan hed sway over the nation and not just the pagans, or Jewish sinners. Everyone had to repent! (It's not just the HIV/AID crowd;it's you and I,too!)Those who saw themselves as righteous were in thrall too. (Remember Jesus was baptized too;he identified himself with the suffering and those in bondage to sin.) True biblical teaching, if it is anything, is incarnational: it costs something to be God our saviour. The price for wayward humanity to be reconciled is that God Himself puts himself on the line. In His son he pays for sin. In his context, Jesus, full of compassion, reached out to suffering humanity, under the power of the Satan, even giving up his life for us sinners. If there's a critique I do have for many churches is that they, unlike Jesus, want to criticize form the outside, giving fire and brimstone sermons without wanting to pray a price themselves. That's what the true God does, unlike the Pharisees, whom Jesus says put burdens on people but are unwilling to lift a finger to help alleviate the burden. The thing I appreciate about the Nation of Islam(which I disagree with wholeheartedly!) is that they understand this (how ironic!). They target young black men that many churches wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. They see the potential in these men, when many churches see thugs, drug dealers, low lifes,etc. For Jesus, holiness was an active presence,the presence of the Holy Spirit that emanted from him that made others holy. It was the healing presence of God at work. The Pharisees always saw "sinners" as sources of contagion;Jesus saw them as people in need of God's rescue. In the late '80s before I went to seminary, I used to participate in a prison ministry where we visited once a month, and I was involved in a program where I took prisoners out on for for a few hours to eat or some cultural activity or church. In my state, every county has a prison facility. In this program there was one black church participating. This is ironic in that many of the inmates were local men whose families were in the churches. We have work to do,bruh!

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Wolfman
I'm not who works in this area but I do think that this has to be a multifaceted approach;for it's much deeper than an HIV/AIDS issue. The HIV/AIDS epidemic in the African American community is piggy backing on some deep social pathologies, providing fertile ground for chaotic sexual behaviour and other things. That's the major point I was making. It's as much about the break up and dissolution of the family and lack of sound parenting practices, where values of love, self-esteem based on people created in God's image, the wide availability of drugs, unemployment and the plight of the black male and prison indistrial complex, and the cultural decay associated with certain forms of popular culture. Nature abhors vacuums. Into this "wilderness" of anomie especially in many urban, inner city settings, this is where this epidemic can spread. I urge you to read the essay on male-female relationships in the excellent book, Rituals of Blood, by Orlando Patterson (Harvard sociologist) who tackles this state of sexual mores in the black community on an attitudinal level.

Now, what is "biblical." It's got to be more than a buzz word! Just proof texting the Bible does not constititue something being biblical. Sound doctrine and praxis is based on a deep reading of the narrative saga of the Bible and the overarching story of what God has done. Jesus reserved his harshest critique for those whose modus operandi was the "holiness" of Israel, the Pharisees. To them holiness comes from separating oneself from the contagion of sin and evil, thereby puttting oneself in position for God's blessing. Jesus, following in the path of many apocalyptic-minded Jews, as his /cousin/mentor John, taught that Satan hed sway over the nation and not just the pagans, or Jewish sinners. Everyone had to repent! (It's not just the HIV/AID crowd;it's you and I,too!)Those who saw themselves as righteous were in thrall too. (Remember Jesus was baptized too;he identified himself with the suffering and those in bondage to sin.) True biblical teaching, if it is anything, is incarnational: it costs something to be God our saviour. The price for wayward humanity to be reconciled is that God Himself puts himself on the line. In His son he pays for sin. In his context, Jesus, full of compassion, reached out to suffering humanity, under the power of the Satan, even giving up his life for us sinners. If there's a critique I do have for many churches is that they, unlike Jesus, want to criticize form the outside, giving fire and brimstone sermons without wanting to pray a price themselves. That's what the true God does, unlike the Pharisees, whom Jesus says put burdens on people but are unwilling to lift a finger to help alleviate the burden. The thing I appreciate about the Nation of Islam(which I disagree with wholeheartedly!) is that they understand this (how ironic!). They target young black men that many churches wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. They see the potential in these men, when many churches see thugs, drug dealers, low lifes,etc. For Jesus, holiness was an active presence,the presence of the Holy Spirit that emanted from him that made others holy. It was the healing presence of God at work. The Pharisees always saw "sinners" as sources of contagion;Jesus saw them as people in need of God's rescue. In the late '80s before I went to seminary, I used to participate in a prison ministry where we visited once a month, and I was involved in a program where I took prisoners out on for for a few hours to eat or some cultural activity or church. In my state, every county has a prison facility. In this program there was one black church participating. This is ironic in that many of the inmates were local men whose families were in the churches. We have work to do,bruh!

Its interesting how prescient your post was . My chapter visited a church yesterday so that we could worship together and the sermon was almost verbatim what you wrote!!!!

As I said, I don't disagree with you. It is the people quoted in the article and their agenda.

Rooo

[Wolfman]

DoggyStyle82-
Bruh, it's all about the dialogue, not anything else!We do have much to do in our communities;but before that we have to allow God to work on us, in a deep way. We need to take the focus off the "Other" first and let God clean us up so that we're humble enough for God to use us. As Jesus said: we need to take the log out of our own eye so that we CAN take the bean out of our brother's eye. Sometimes I feel that we get so caught up in our "religious" ghettos we forget, usually because of fear, who God in Christ is. We so easily succumb to self-serving agendas. In our families and communities there is so much "stuff" that is kept secret and hidden which is a breeding ground for all manner of soul and body sicknesses. The kind of "secrets" that noone talks about but everyone knows about, in families, churches, communities,etc. In this darkness Satan keeps people in bondage out of fear and shame through lies of condemnation. This climate of unforgiveness,fear, shame, hatred, etc. is what impedes the Holy Spirit from moving as God would have done to effect healing. The greatest Christian ("biblical") act I know of that has been done as an public policy-related event in recent history was the "Truth and Reconciliation" Committee and its work in South Africa. All the problems that that country does have could have been worse--there could have been a civil war. To have people, from all sides to come forward and confess their acts of criminal brutality and amnesty given was a healing act on a national level.It was very brutal also: one only had to see Archbishop Tutu collapsing on the table in the proceedings and sobbing uncontrollably when someone "confessed" their crimes to see the depth of pain and human suffering. One one level, the HIV/AIDS crisis is a symptom of some other deep seated issues in our communities. In my own family, my only aunt told me a "family secret"yesterday of a younger male cousin who is HIV positive. There is so much to this sad story, even some "generational curse" issues, I believe. I need to stop now.... You can tell my real passion! God is bigger than all our "issues." Be blessed, my brother!
-Wolfman