Protests/Violonce over desecration of Qur'an at Gitmo

[dekeguy]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi

What makes you better? What makes them better? Is anyone really better than the next person? [/B]

===================

Its not really a question of who is better but I think it does boil down to actions speaking louder than words. We have shed our blood to liberate them. They are quite willing to murder us and anyone who has a favorable word for us. Our actions have been marked by monumental attempts to do something positive for them at the cost of many of our lives. Their actions have been somewhat different.
I dislike using the Us v. Them approach but it does seem to be cultural thing and I am tired of their posturing and demonstrations of mass violence and approval of barbaric actions while we try damned hard to adhear to a positive standard. Our mistakes and less than commendable actions are gross deviations from our policy and acceptable norms of conduct and are addressed with stern response. Their actions speak for themselves and I am not impressed. I am impressed by the gallant restraint and dedication in execution of duty by the overwelming majority of our guys in the face of extreme provocation. It is perhaps time for that culture to remember its long faded greatness, stop acting like a bunch of juvenile delinquents, and grow up.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by dekeguy
Its not really a question of who is better but I think it does boil down to actions speaking louder than words. We have shed our blood to liberate them. They are quite willing to murder us and anyone who has a favorable word for us. Our actions have been marked by monumental attempts to do something positive for them at the cost of many of our lives. Their actions have been somewhat different.
I dislike using the Us v. Them approach but it does seem to be cultural thing and I am tired of their posturing and demonstrations of mass violence and approval of barbaric actions while we try damned hard to adhear to a positive standard. Our mistakes and less than commendable actions are gross deviations from our policy and acceptable norms of conduct and are addressed with stern response. Their actions speak for themselves and I am not impressed. I am impressed by the gallant restraint and dedication in execution of duty by the overwelming majority of our guys in the face of extreme provocation. It is perhaps time for that culture to remember its long faded greatness, stop acting like a bunch of juvenile delinquents, and grow up.

I'm not trying to start a fight here, but I will play the devil's advocate for a moment.

Maybe, just maybe the old saying "you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped" applies here. Maybe there is a reason (and I'm not saying it's a good one) for their actions. And maybe, no matter the good intentions of the US, they just don't want you there.

Also, it seems that it is always the "super powers" that are held to a higher standard. You are expected to behave a certain way, and when you (speaking generally of course) don't, the world is a hell of a lot more critical.

So what really needs to happen is a global attitude adjustment.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I'm not trying to start a fight here, but I will play the devil's advocate for a moment.

Maybe, just maybe the old saying "you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped" applies here. Maybe there is a reason (and I'm not saying it's a good one) for their actions. And maybe, no matter the good intentions of the US, they just don't want you there.

Or maybe, just maybe the vast majority of the people do, but the vast minority of 'voice pieces' do not. Maybe the power void is being filled by those who can only command a voice by speaking against the 'super power.'

And maybe, just maybe there's a better way than acting as an apologist for the actions of those who have no justification beyond hatred and extremist religion.

Then again, dealing in "maybe", conjecture, and terms like "right/wrong" is what makes it difficult to really take your points beyond face value.

[dekeguy]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
I'm not trying to start a fight here, but I will play the devil's advocate for a moment.

Maybe, just maybe the old saying "you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped" applies here. Maybe there is a reason (and I'm not saying it's a good one) for their actions. And maybe, no matter the good intentions of the US, they just don't want you there.

Also, it seems that it is always the "super powers" that are held to a higher standard. You are expected to behave a certain way, and when you (speaking generally of course) don't, the world is a hell of a lot more critical.

So what really needs to happen is a global attitude adjustment.

==============

No problem with being held to a higher standard. I expected my troops to conduct themselves honorably and I believe that we should not tolerate anything less on our part. However, I do not agree with applying a lower standard to "them". That would certainly be an act of gross patronizing.

Whatever their reasons there can be no excuse for terrorism and murder as a policy of action. They may not want to be helped but that does not give them license to murder anyone anywhere and if they choose to attack us at home then they should expect to reap the whirlwind. Please note that I use the word "them" in a collective sense refering to terrorists.

I am saddened by the turn around in attitude. When we took out the few Iraqi units that wanted to fight and chased off the others that wanted to run the people came out and tearfully thanked us for rescueing them from the horror of Saddam and his Ba'ath thugs. We heard horrific stories from countless ordinary people about really terrible acts of barbarity. They were overcome with gratitude for our intervention on their behalf. Now they seem to have the attitude that it was all right for us to bleed to set them free but now please go away and stop polluting their "sacred" land. To me the only thing sacred about that land is that which was sanctified by the blood of those, both US and Iraqi, who lifted the horror from their backs at the cost of their own lives.

Since it is our announced intention to get out and go home as soon as they have a stable government that can function on its own it seems to me to be more productive to work toward that end rather than try to derail the efforts towards stability.
Now, this comment is Iraq centered but my thoughts extend to extremists throughout the area. Time to grow up kiddies.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by KSig RC
Or maybe, just maybe the vast majority of the people do, but the vast minority of 'voice pieces' do not. Maybe the power void is being filled by those who can only command a voice by speaking against the 'super power.'

And maybe, just maybe there's a better way than acting as an apologist for the actions of those who have no justification beyond hatred and extremist religion.

Then again, dealing in "maybe", conjecture, and terms like "right/wrong" is what makes it difficult to really take your points beyond face value.

Don't worry, nobody takes that talk seriously.

At the end of the day, terrorists around the world wanted to kill Americans because of a fake story about what happened to a book involving a toilet (something they don't even have in their countries and would surely praise).

-Rudey

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by KSig RC
...Then again, dealing in "maybe", conjecture, and terms like "right/wrong" is what makes it difficult to really take your points beyond face value.

Well unless you have all the facts and know for certain that they 100% accurate, then we can only deal in conjecture.

Everyone is approaching the situation from different angles, so there will be different answers. Not everyone is going to agree with me, or you or him or them, etc. etc.

[Tom Earp]

Well, if ths is all so true, then why dont The People of Afg and Iraq get off of ass and turn the PEOPLE in who are responsible in Killing the Same People who are trying to help them, get jobs and make a living. I think they are called Civilians.

Oh, Civilians, those that want to make a living and feed their Familys, help Ptotect or have oil flow to help them build thier Country!

Damn, it is amazing who have never carried a weapon to protect others. I was not in the Military, I was a Police Officer. It still sucks when people dont want to help their own and have outside influences come in to kill and maim.

[Rudey]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/18/op...iedman.html?hp

Outrage and Silence
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
It is hard not to notice two contrasting stories that have run side by side during the past week. One is the story about the violent protests in the Muslim world triggered by a report in Newsweek (which the magazine has now retracted) that U.S. interrogators at Guantánamo Bay desecrated a Koran by throwing it into a toilet. In Afghanistan alone, at least 16 people were killed and more than 100 wounded in anti-American rioting that has been linked to that report. I certainly hope that Newsweek story is incorrect, because it would be outrageous if U.S. interrogators behaved that way.

That said, though, in the same newspapers one can read the latest reports from Iraq, where Baathist and jihadist suicide bombers have killed 400 Iraqi Muslims in the past month - most of them Shiite and Kurdish civilians shopping in markets, walking in funerals, going to mosques or volunteering to join the police.

Yet these mass murders - this desecration and dismemberment of real Muslims by other Muslims - have not prompted a single protest march anywhere in the Muslim world. And I have not read of a single fatwa issued by any Muslim cleric outside Iraq condemning these indiscriminate mass murders of Iraqi Shiites and Kurds by these jihadist suicide bombers, many of whom, according to a Washington Post report, are coming from Saudi Arabia.

The Muslim world's silence about the real desecration of Iraqis, coupled with its outrage over the alleged desecration of a Koran, highlights what we are up against in trying to stabilize Iraq - as well as the only workable strategy going forward.

The challenge we face in Iraq is so steep precisely because the power shift the U.S. and its allies are trying to engineer there is so profound - in both religious and political terms.

Religiously, if you want to know how the Sunni Arab world views a Shiite's being elected leader of Iraq, for the first time ever, think about how whites in Alabama would have felt about a black governor's being installed there in 1920. Some Sunnis do not think Shiites are authentic Muslims, and are indifferent to their brutalization.

At the same time, politically speaking, some Arab regimes prefer to see the pot boiling in Iraq so the democratization process can never spread to their countries. That's why their official newspapers rarely describe the murders of civilians in Iraq as a massacre or acts of terror. Such crimes are usually sanitized as "resistance" to occupation.

Salama Na'mat, the Washington bureau chief for the London-based Arabic daily Al Hayat, wrote the other day: "What is the responsibility of the [Arab] regimes and the official and semiofficial media in the countries bordering Iraq in legitimizing the operations that murder Iraqis? ... Isn't their goal to thwart [the emergence of] the newborn democracy in Iraq so that it won't spread in the region?" (Translation by Memri.)

In identifying the problem, though, Mr. Na'mat also identifies the solution. If you want to stop a wave of suicide bombings, the likes of which we are seeing in Iraq, it takes a village. I am a big believer that the greatest restraint on human behavior is not laws and police, but culture and religious authority. It is what the community, what the village, deems shameful. That is what restrains people. So how do we get the Sunni Arab village to delegitimize suicide bombers?

Inside Iraq, obviously, credible Sunnis have to be brought into the political process and constitution-drafting, as long as they do not have blood on their hands from Saddam's days. And outside Iraq, the Bush team needs to be forcefully demanding that Saudi Arabia and other key Arab allies use their media, government and religious systems to denounce and delegitimize the despicable murder of Muslims by Muslims in Iraq.

If the Arab world, its media and its spiritual leaders, came out and forcefully and repeatedly condemned those who mount these suicide attacks, and if credible Sunnis were given their fair share in the Iraqi government, I am certain a lot of this suicide bombing would stop, as happened with the Palestinians. Iraqi Sunnis would pass on the intelligence needed to prevent these attacks, and they would deny the suicide bombers the safe houses they need to succeed.

That is the only way it stops, because we don't know who is who. It takes the village - and right now the Sunni Arab village needs to be pressured and induced to restrain those among them who are engaging in these suicidal murders of innocents.

The best way to honor the Koran is to live by the values of mercy and compassion that it propagates.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by hoosier
CBS lied, nobody died (4 fired)

Newsweek lied, a whole bunch died. (How many will be fired)

following this line of your points...

Bush lied, a 100,000 died (re-elected - I wonder why he wasn't fired?)

[RACooper]

Well it looks like the story conintues, with the release of FBI and ICRC papers that both indicate allegations of mistreatment of the Qu'ran (and the faith of Islam in general).

FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050525/...antanamo_quran

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer 11 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Terror suspects at the Guantanamo Bay prison told U.S. interrogators as early as April 2002, just three months after the first detainees arrived, that military guards abused them and desecrated the Quran, declassified FBI records say.

"Their behavior is bad," one detainee is quoted as saying of his guards during an interrogation by an FBI special agent on July 22, 2002. "About five months ago the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Quran in the toilet."

Lawrence Di Rita, chief spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, said Wednesday that U.S. military officials at Guantanamo Bay had recently found a separate record of the same allegation by the same detainee, and he was re-interviewed on May 14. "He did not corroborate his own allegation," Di Rita said.

Asked why he felt certain that this detainee did not affirm his allegation out of fear of retaliation, Di Rita said, "It's a judgment call, and I trust the judgment of the commanders more than I trust the judgment of al-Qaida."

The statements about guards disrespecting the Quran echo public allegations made many months later by some detainees and their lawyers after the prisoners' release from Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. The once-secret FBI documents show a consistency to the allegations and are the first indication that Justice and Defense department officials were aware in early 2002 that detainees were accusing their guards of mistreating the Quran.

One told an interrogator in March 2003 that guards had repeatedly mishandled the Quran. This detainee asked why the United States, as a supporter of freedom of religion, was using the Muslim holy book as a weapon.

Still another said in October 2002 that he and other detainees had been "beaten, spit upon and treated worse than a dog."

Separately on Wednesday, Amnesty International urged the United States to shut down the prison, calling it "the gulag of our time." White House spokesman Scott McClellan said that the human rights group's complaints were "unsupported by the facts" and that allegations of mistreatment were being investigated.

In its annual report, Amnesty accused the United States of failing to live up to its responsibility to set the standard for human rights protections. Rather, the group said the United States has been the biggest disappointment "after evidence came to light that the U.S. administration had sanctioned interrogation techniques that violated the U.N. Convention against Torture."

Some 540 men are being held at Guantanamo Bay on suspicion of links to Afghanistan's ousted Taliban government or the al-Qaida terror network. Some have been jailed for more than three years without charge. The Defense Department argues that the detention prevents these enemy combatants from fighting against the United States.

Di Rita said the charges of deliberate Quran desecration by U.S. military personnel were "fantastic" and "not credible on their face" because U.S. commanders were careful not to inflame passions among the detainees.

"Commanders knew it was a very sensitive issue and they didn't need the trouble," the spokesman said.

Di Rita also said that the terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay had been trained to make such false claims.

Indeed, the FBI records cite at least one instance in which a detainee is said to have falsely claimed that a guard had dropped a Quran. "In actuality the detainee dropped the Quran and then blamed the guard. Many other detainees reacted to this claim," the FBI document said, and that sparked an uprising "on or about 19-20 July 2002."

In an April 6, 2002, FBI interrogation, one of the detainees said guards had been "pushing them around and throwing their waste bucket at them in the cell, sometimes with waste still in the bucket, and kicking the Quran."

Another detainee stated that he had been beaten unconscious at Guantanamo Bay in the spring of 2002, a period in which U.S. interrogators were pressing hard for intelligence information they believed some of the detainees held on the planning, structure and tactics of
Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida terrorist network.

The newly released FBI records do not indicate whether the allegations were investigated or substantiated.

In response to a recent Newsweek story, later retracted, that U.S. officials had confirmed allegations of Quran desecration at Guantanamo Bay, Pentagon officials have said repeatedly that they have turned up no credible, substantiated claims that U.S. military guards had deliberately treated the Muslim holy book with disrespect.

Di Rita said the Pentagon had not seen the new FBI documents until they were made public Wednesday by the
American Civil Liberties Union. The ACLU said it received them in response to a federal court order that directed the FBI and other agencies to comply with the organization's request under the Freedom of Information Act.

In many of the interrogations described in the FBI documents, military officers were present. Some were with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations; others were Navy and Army investigations personnel.

Large portions of the interrogation summaries were blacked out by FBI censors before being released to the ACLU.

The U.S. Southern Command, which is responsible for the Guantanamo Bay detention center, responded to the Newsweek story by beginning a review of written logs searching for corroborated incidents of Quran mishandling. As of Wednesday, officials had not reported finding any.

In January 2003, the military issued a three-page written guideline for handling a detainee's Quran, including a stipulation that it should be handled "as if it were a fragile piece of delicate art," and that it not be placed in "offensive areas such as the floor, near the toilet or sink, near the feet or dirty/wet areas."

ACLU officials said the newly declassified documents provide new evidence that U.S. authorities at Guantanamo Bay were mistreating symbols of the detainees' religious beliefs as a tactic to force them to talk.

"The United States government continues to turn a blind eye to mounting evidence of widespread abuse of detainees held in its custody," said ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero. "If we are to truly repair America's standing in the world, the Bush administration must hold accountable high-ranking officials who allow the continuing abuse and torture of detainees."

Unfortunately the news up here has been centering on the "interesting" political situation... so no CBC coverage of the Pentagon briefings about Gitmo - briefs that I'd like to see... if only to see how the PR person is responding to the above article, or the latest Amnesty International condemnations.

[jubilance1922]

First I'd like to say that I'm saddened by some of the comments in this thread. I'm a Muslim, and it saddens me to see the level of disrespect that my faith is receiving, both in the world and in this thread. I can tell you right now, that TRUE Islam is a peaceful religion, and that those who choose to do otherwise will have to answer for their actions.

That said, I'm distressed that very few people think its wrong to desecrate someone else's holy book. Think about it: if it was a Bible, would you be upset then? Disrespect is NEVER good, especially when it harms more people than the unintended. I've never bashed someone else's beliefs, but I often find myself and my faith under attack from those who are too ignorant to go out and try to understand.

If you TRULY want to know what Islam is about, pm me.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by jubilance1922
I'm a Muslim, and it saddens me to see the level of disrespect that my faith is receiving, both in the world and in this thread.

If the allegations are true, the actions were wrong.

I have no respect for so called insurgents who commit murder under the guise of any religion.

To be disrespectful of Islam (or Presbyterianism, Catholicism, or any other religion) and it's followers isn't right, though.

It's very difficult to separate politics and religion in many cases -- and this one in particular -- but we have to try to do that.

Otherwise a great injustice may be done to those who don't deserve it.

Our enemy here is not a religion, but an ideology.

[jubilance1922]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
If the allegations are true, the actions were wrong.

I have no respect for so called insurgents who commit murder under the guise of any religion.

To be disrespectful of Islam (or Presbyterianism, Catholicism, or any other religion) and it's followers isn't right, though.

It's very difficult to separate politics and religion in many cases -- and this one in particular -- but we have to try to do that.

Otherwise a great injustice may be done to those who don't deserve it.

Our enemy here is not a religion, but an ideology.

I agree.

A fifth of the world's population are Muslims. Terrorists make up a very small population of the group who call themselves Muslims. Yet the media portrays all of us as hatemongers just waiting to overthrow the US. I just want people to realize that those on tv are the exception, not the norm, and that most Muslims do not deserve to be disrespected or feared.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by jubilance1922
First I'd like to say that I'm saddened by some of the comments in this thread. I'm a Muslim, and it saddens me to see the level of disrespect that my faith is receiving, both in the world and in this thread. I can tell you right now, that TRUE Islam is a peaceful religion, and that those who choose to do otherwise will have to answer for their actions.

That said, I'm distressed that very few people think its wrong to desecrate someone else's holy book. Think about it: if it was a Bible, would you be upset then? Disrespect is NEVER good, especially when it harms more people than the unintended. I've never bashed someone else's beliefs, but I often find myself and my faith under attack from those who are too ignorant to go out and try to understand.

If you TRULY want to know what Islam is about, pm me.

That is your interpretation of Islam. I have had this discussion with people on this board and many of those Muslims do see my viewpoint. My viewpoint is that religion is interpreted by people differently. There are quite a few people who do believe in violence and are Muslims and believe in cutting off body parts according to Sharia and might even consider you not to be a real Muslim. You will say they are not true Muslims and they will say the same of you. The problem is that there are not just a handful of people with that viewpoint anymore.

And yes, there is a problem with desecrating or disrespecting any book, but no book is worth dying for and certainly not killing for. Perhaps your interpretation of Islam differs from those in the middle east that did want to kill and did die after Newsweek released a report; I don't know.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Originally posted by jubilance1922
I agree.

A fifth of the world's population are Muslims. Terrorists make up a very small population of the group who call themselves Muslims. Yet the media portrays all of us as hatemongers just waiting to overthrow the US. I just want people to realize that those on tv are the exception, not the norm, and that most Muslims do not deserve to be disrespected or feared.

Where did you get 1/5? A decade ago it was 1/4 I thought and the fast growing religion. I don't know the statistics now but I was just wondering if it really was that low.

-Rudey