Damon Dash And John McWherter

[Senusret I]

John McWhorter's Article

That's McWhorter's article.....I only have a few issues with it, particularly about his thoughts on "The Message" but all in all, I applaud him for having an unpopular, but well-researched and well-articulated opinion. (We should settle for nothing less.)

[blackwatch06]

Yes sir, Thanks Bro. dardenr, this is exactly what I am talking about.

Prof. Mcwhorter has beaten me to the punch. I trying to hurry up and finish my degree, so I can write the book about hip-hop that is not kissing the buts of hip-hop artists too much, and still loves black people enough so that we will listen to a well reasoned and soundly argued stance. I think that of all the critiques I have heard of Hip-hop, McWhorter's stance is probably the most valid. Here's why:


1. He acknowledges the fact that the voice of hip-hop that is gangsta is not ever going to be empowering, which I agree with (check the discussion about Dead Prez in theTalib Kweli thread).


2. He recognizes that the 'hood is somewhere not to glamorize, but to critique and overcome with positive collective action, not meaningless acquiescence to destruction and nihilism (which I think is the strongest point in his critique).


and 3. The point that rap music does have a powerful influence on the perceptions young people have about identity. I see it all the time with young people here in the school system. I tell them that it seems that they are living in a rap video (with how hey view life and temselves), and this clouds their perception not only of themselves, but of reality as well.


Before I sound like I am kissing Mcwhorter's butt though, I do feel that he doesn't even consider a very obvious factor that I am sure that he is aware of, that White owned media outlets control what type of music is put out, and that the image that we see is the image that is comfortable with the whites that promote and sell it, as well as buy it. He makes a statement that the reason more whites buy the musc is because there are just more whites in America. I think we can see his bias here, McWhorter is what I like to call a conservative for hire, meaning that he gets paid very well to comfort white America about many social issues that affect blacks by standing on a premise that inequality is self imposed by blacks. Systematic claims to inequality to him are ridiculous, as I have seen and read him state several times. This maybe because of his training (in linguistics, which doesn't deal with social system critiques much, at least last time I checked), but I think also it is because taking this stance and using his considerable intellectual and writing skills to back up his stance affords him many opportunities to speak and garner media attention. On some level, I ain't mad at him though, I think Black America needs to hear this point of view more. It challenges us to think more critically about issues with inequality and identity.

Once again, thanks for posting this, Bro. Dardenr.
Blackwatch!!!!!!

[Senusret I]

Bro. Blackwatch,

Exactly! I wish I had thought of the white-owned media outlet angle. That's something to consider.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by dardenr
Bro. Blackwatch,

Exactly! I wish I had thought of the white-owned media outlet angle. That's something to consider.

The media angle lets us off too easily. Hip Hop was a strong presence in our communities well before videos and wide spread acceptance by the white community. Shoot, we all know who the best underground rappers are, how people from the "streets" and the "hood" kick it, well before it hits mass marketing.

The "problem" with McWhorter is that he is right for the wrong reasons. His criticism is not designed to elevate from the inside out, its designed for the consumption of the white, cultural elitists who can assauge their guilt through his words. I really wish that BET or Tom Joyner had an outlet where there was consistent dialogue between black conservatives and others. We really need to grow up intellectually.

[enlightenment06]

I agree with DoggyStyle.

[Steeltrap]

I, too, would like to see people like McWhorter give their views in black settings. But I suspect that they don't want to do so, because perhaps they don't want to p*** off their benefactors. Who really is funding these cats, Project 21, etc?

As an aside, I was reading an article from a British paper on Henry Louis Gates, the Harvard professor, and he had an interesting comment that sort of relates to what we're talking about here:

"My TV series is really about that very dilemma. What I call the black cultural nationalist imaginary - the belief that we are all united because we are black and descended from slaves and have a common enemy called 'whitey' - no longer applies. It's not white versus black any more, it's haves versus have-nots. Unless the black middle-classes unite to promote the interests of the black underclass, tension between them is inevitable. "

For the full article, peep:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,...716016,00.html

[blackwatch06]

Does the question of black America have to do more with economic class than race? The discussions we are having here about rap music imagery have a lot to do with the class divide in our community. The biggest resentment many middle class blacks have with rap music imagery is that the definition of authentic blackness is being tied to ghetto (lower economic class) rather than advocating for the issues of poverty and/or racism to end. In the article, Gates suggests that the middle class blacks have to advocate fo change for the lower class blacks. He suggests that the intergration fought for in the civil rights movement was so that hard work could bring about economic change for blacks. Is racism ( a psycho-social and economic phenomenon) combatted with economic uplift only? Like I was talkin to a friend of mine who stated "I don't care if the system is racist, as long as I can get my fair share of health wealth and prosperity, I'm cool." Is the struggle merely about resources, or is it about human dignity?
Blackwatch!!!!!!

[Wonderful1908]

I think that we have a responsibilty to try to understand the breakdown between the classes before we assign blame to anyone or any establishmet for the riff between the middle class and the lower class. Those of us who live in the middle class African- Amiercan world are at a similar disadvantage as those who live in the lower class. As we are priviledged to perhaps education which equals expoure, we are also limited to some of the realities of a world that our education has allowed us to avoid. I believe if each of us would have not been exposed to EDUCATION we would not even be entertaining an in depth discussion such as this. As African-Americans we have got to try to bridge the social gap by recognizing it is also an educational one as well. Where whites are often afforded oppurtunities based on the fact that they are the majority, most of us have been afforded oppurtunites based on hard work and our education level. So as with any group of people who work hard to expand their horizons and enviroment perhaps we have resentment for a lower class that is equipped with a weapon of different magnintude (perhaps hip-hop) that provides for them a similiar tool to communicate, express thier concerns and in many ways be a lucrative venture for those who are succesful. It also attacts more people than a formal education not becuase its easier but becasue it is more of a reality to them, I am sure not everybody here grew up well to do, but those of you who did grow up surrunded my street culture can testify I am sure your hard work and desire for a better life was a driving force to "better" yourself. The flaw with hip-hop is that where an education is more readily available and by far a more attainable reality how do we as African-Americans relate the message to others? In a stretch of an analogy for those who are part of BGLO's you were determined to become a member of only ONE organization, cleary the others had benefits and traits that would have been quite honorable, however you focused on one and I am sure no one could sway your opinion. So if you were unswayed by exposure to something as simple as an organization, imagine trying to unsway a lifetime of exposure to the benefits of hip-hop and its culture?

[blackwatch06]

After all, if education is more readily available as wonderful08 astutely puts it, then what is so much more appealing about hip-hop to the "ghetto youth"? Some people say that it is not easier, but it is more of a reality. I don't see how. I think that hip-hop is percieved as more of a reality to the youth because of skewed perception, they feel that hip-hop points to their identity as black people more so than education. This is due to the white supremacist notions clouding the perceptions of young people.


In our Sunday school class this quarter, we are examining the meaning of different aspects of life and salvation by looking critically at our perceptions and also looking at truth- the "realest reality" so to speak (cf. John 18:33-38). Most times, young people relate to hip-hop more due to exposure- they see it, hear,and play it all of the time. Education often times is not shown to them in a way in which they can take ownership of it. It becomes foreign to them, even though it is way more "real" to them than hip-hop will ever be, because they are actually in the school, interacting with teachers and administrators, and actually reading books (those who can read . I think it is easier to give up on education and claim a negtive identity (huslter, pimp, etc.) than to work to empower yourself through education.

Hip-hop is a media creation now. The reality of black life is being filtered through a prism of white label and media execs who are not trying to deliver reality (or truth), but a marketable perception (or view) of black life. Doggeystyle notes that it is too easy to blame the white media, because we see these things in our communities. I agree we see these things, but the media has succomb to the post modern notion that truth is merely perception. Since they choose to high light certain aspects of our culture, those aspects become the "reality" or truth about our culture to many people, black and white. I do not deny that there are drug dealers, gangsters, strippers and pimps in our inner city communities, but is that all there is? Aren't there any hard working, honest women and men, hairdressers and barbers, preachers that are dedicated to making a difference, schools and teachers that are making differences, etc.? I think so, but if your perception of the truth is clouded by media due to an untrained and uncritical mind, then you will gravitate towards the negative element due to the ongoing search for a racial identity that seems to be quenched when you claim a marketable media image as an authentic racial identity. You value self-perception (read- expediency or "ease") over truth ( read -despite your environment, you don't have to be a "hustler" to be "authentically black").

I think the education piece is vital, but we also have to consider values. Do we value truth, or do we value self-perception? I think it is easier for the ghetto youth to fall into the nihilism that McWhorter talks about than to own up to the reality of overcomming the world. This is what makes hip-hop more relative to youth, it represents nothing by means of empowerment, but it offers a lot by means of expediency, which ultimately leads to destruction.
Blackwatch!!!!!!

[Wonderful1908]

Originally posted by blackwatch06
After all, if education is more readily available as wonderful08 astutely puts it, then what is so much more appealing about hip-hop to the "ghetto youth"? Some people say that it is not easier, but it is more of a reality. I don't see how. I think that hip-hop is percieved as more of a reality to the youth because of skewed perception, they feel that hip-hop points to their identity as black people more so than education. This is due to the white supremacist notions clouding the perceptions of young people.



I think the education piece is vital, but we also have to consider values. Do we value truth, or do we value self-perception? I think it is easier for the ghetto youth to fall into the nihilism that McWhorter talks about than to own up to the reality of overcomming the world. This is what makes hip-hop more relative to youth, it represents nothing by means of empowerment, but it offers a lot by means of expediency, which ultimately leads to destruction.
Blackwatch!!!!!!

Good points, I think though that hip hop does offer some form of empowerment otherwise it would not be appealing to anybody. I agree with your theories on it being "easier" to identify with and possibly obtain (through less work) than education. As far as values, that is a sticky situation, I use to believe that ones socio-economic status often was an idication to ones values, but that is an incorrect assumption, so as where education level is usually closely linked to socio-economic status, what are values linked to? I think this question is another topic for the African-American community to address. Since we live in America it is politically incorrect to force ones opinions and values on others so as a race of people struggling to maintain identity and stay active in the race for the American dream we find ourselves behind an ideal called hip-hop. (Sadly we are not even really in control of the ideal as music exceutives and ceo's are) So as children grow up in our society I think it boils down to this. As I said before the majority of Americans not just Blacks DO NOT go to college, so the importance of an education though I am sure stressed in school, is no where near as attainable than the hip-hop dream is to some. If everybody around me goes to college I may think twice about the need to go, but if everybody around me does not, then I am in the norm , and to break the norm would be to break the cycle, how do we break the cycle I think that is the real question?

[blackwatch06]

When I say values, I am not trying to suggests that lower Socio-Economic status (SES) is the result of a morally bankrupt value system only. I am trying to suggest that the choice to value hip-hop over education is the result of a person choosing to look at life from a perspective of expediency. Is this morally bankrupt? Only if we judge the morality of a decision according to the consequesnces and find that the consequences of the decision are destructive.


I understand that poverty is the result of a complex set of variables both within and without our community. It involves both personal and systemic factors that need to be considered, some of which are educational attainment, social policies, motivation of the people involved, opportunities afforded, preparation of the people involved, etc. Are personal values a part of this equation?, of course, are they the only factore effecting SES?, of course not. But among the factors, I think that personal values, in as far as our values can effect our choices, are a very salient factor. If you make certain decisions at certain times in your life, you can better equip yourself to withstand the systemic ills that plague our nation (racism, poverty, and discrimination) or you can make it easier for these ills to destroy you.


A note about political correctness and imposing values on people. Is it wrong for a person to see another person drowning and yell "Why don't you use a life preservers, here's one!!!" and toss it out to him? The drowning person can choose to use it , or refuse it. If the drowning person refuses it, that's fine, but the consequence of not using it can mean death. If the drowning person decides that as a principle, using life preservers flies againsts their belief in swimming without the use of the life preserver, would the suggestion of using one be considered politically incorrect? Is political correctness becoming the value to surpass all values, even over and above self (and community) preservation? Marx noted that ultimately what we would find in capitalist societies is that people would begin to value protecting rights over protecting life. He saw this as a result of a society cherishing their own individual rights over the rights (and survival) of the community. What sense does it make to tell a child nothing about protecting their lives because they may not want to hear it, or may find it offensive? Children are young people in ned of guidance and teaching from adults. Why sit around and watch children make fatal mistakes in judgement in the name of political correctness? While we talk about how wrong imposing values on others is, to suggest that it is wrong to impose values is in itself imposing a value on someone.


I stand firm in stating that if a person chooses the hip-hop identity of blackness, that decision will have certain consequences in our society. If the nihilism and lack of belief in education are values that black people hold dear, chances are that in our society today, the opportunities that are afforded to black people, already too infrequent and insuffiecient, will become just that much more insufficient and infrequent to an uneducated and unmotivated black person. These consequences are ends that they really don't want for themselves if they have any hope in their future. If this is politcal incorrectness, then call me an "un-pc" person, but also call me a person that is truly concerned with empowering our community.
Blackwatch!!!!!!

[Steeltrap]

I found this when doing a search on "culturally black" on Yahoo! Not a bad read, and what I found interesting is that McWhorter's not necessarily comfortable being embraced by white conservatives and voted for Ralph Nader. It seems that he's considered "conservative" because some of his beliefs veer from the Rev. Al/Jesee (sic) line:

http://reason.com/0110/fe.cy.internal.shtml

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Steeltrap
I found this when doing a search on "culturally black" on Yahoo! Not a bad read, and what I found interesting is that McWhorter's not necessarily comfortable being embraced by white conservatives and voted for Ralph Nader. It seems that he's considered "conservative" because some of his beliefs veer from the Rev. Al/Jesee (sic) line:

http://reason.com/0110/fe.cy.internal.shtml

He is considered "conservative" because he writes mainly for the benefit of those that would do harm to Black progress. His social criticism is not meant for the uplift of the people he writes about. He doesn't develop policies to help inner-city school districts nor give seminars to help Blacks develop strategies for bringing vouchers to embattled school districts. He is just a critic, who happens to be right very often.

[Steeltrap]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
He is considered "conservative" because he writes mainly for the benefit of those that would do harm to Black progress. His social criticism is not meant for the uplift of the people he writes about. He doesn't develop policies to help inner-city school districts nor give seminars to help Blacks develop strategies for bringing vouchers to embattled school districts. He is just a critic, who happens to be right very often.

Don't shoot me. I'm just the messenger, but you're right about the audience. I've said that before. These type of guys need to put themselves in front of black audiences.