Disgusted

[KillarneyRose]

I agree with KSigKid. I'm truly sorry that you lost a good friend, Rob. No matter what happens to the pilot responsible, it won't bring him back, but I'm sure that it makes the whole ordeal more difficult when you feel that justice hasn't been served.

I don't know enough about the situation to say what should be done one way or another, but I am so very sorry about what happened. Human lives were needlessly lost and whether they're American lives or Canadian lives, it's a terrible tragedy.

[UCFPhiDelt]

I personally don't see what the loss of his friend has to do with this man's pending prosecution. Have we all forgotten that this serviceman has not been convicted, nor for that fact even tried for a crime? So don't tell me that he should "take his punishment as an officer and genteleman" that is BS. He has not been tried in a court of law and I expect NO MAN to take a punishment without a fair and legal trial.

I understand you are out for blood. You also make anti-American statements every time you post. War is hell and the guy made a mistake. (He may be found guilty and pay a steep price) It happens. If Canadians can't handle it, keep your boys at home. Got it? I am tired of hearing you whine. GOD BLESS THE USA!

P.S. I still love the Maple Leafs

[Peaches-n-Cream]

You have my deepest sympathy.

[KillarneyRose]

Some of these replies are just plain mean. If I had lost a friend under questionable circumstances, I would be just as mad and upset as Rob is. He has a personal stake in what happened, we don't (at least not directly). Let the man grieve, for goodness sakes.

As far as Rob's "anti-American" posts, I am far less bothered by them than I am bothered by anti-American posts written by people who actually reap all the very real benefits of being an American.

[GMUBunny]

I'm incredibly sorry for your loss. If the area the pilot bombed was a KNOWN practice area, he should have known better, but that's just me. I do have my own opinions on the judicial system as it applies to our military forces but I won't post them here because I'm bound to be flamed for them. However, when this whole thing comes to fruition and his punishment is dealt to him, I'll say something...

[DeltAlum]

I'm sorry Rob lost a friend, too. I lost a lot of them in Vietnam, and I'm still not too happy with the "reasons" we were there. But I keep it to myself. You don't hold a whole country or it's Armed Forces in contempt for this kind of thing. It was a mistake.

[AOcutiePi4ever]

**this post is direct and to-the-point, so you are forewarned, don't read if you dont want to**

As a dual citizen of both Canada and the US ((and someone who has lived in canada for 12 years and the US for 7 yrs)) i pay particular attention to both sides of the story and generally have no bias. but i have started to notice that canadians cry the blues quite a lot when it comes to canadian/american conflicts such as this one, while americans just accept it at face value and go on with life. even if the situation was reversed, i still feel that americans would accept it as a mistake and take no ill feelings towards canada bc of it. i think its high time some canadians got off there mountain of self pity and insecurity and realized the US is NOT out to get them, and that canada is NOT "always and perpetually" shortchanged. besides, if you want something changed or fixed, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! DONT WHINE!!


other then that, i am very sorry for your loss. dont go thinkin im some insensitive meanie, its just that i keep noticing this repeating behavior and thought id share my $.02

[Munchkin03]

I don't see any whining on this board on the part of RACooper at all, nor do I see anything overarching to resent. It's true that his punishment, even with the court martial, is relatively small--less, in fact, than what Kelly Flynn received for her indiscretions (general discharge and full reimbursement to USAFA). The soldier's actions sound not unlike those of one Lieutenant William Calley--another person who received a relatively light sentence and eventually had it revoked. The rules of wartime are different from the rules of peacetime--and sometimes that turns into people receiving light punishments for heinous or reckless things.

If saying that makes me "Anti-American" in the eyes of some GC readers, then it is their problem, not mine.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
The soldier's actions sound not unlike those of one Lieutenant William Calley

Are you saying that there is a parrallel between an ANG Major who, perhaps carelessly -- but all the same accidentally, drops a bomb on a live fire exercise from 10,000 feet, and an infantry Leiutenant who knowingly orders the murder of non-combatants, including women and children within his field of view?

Neither qualify as bright spots in our military history, but somehow, I miss the relationship.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by UCFPhiDelt
I understand you are out for blood. You also make anti-American statements every time you post. War is hell and the guy made a mistake. (He may be found guilty and pay a steep price) It happens. If Canadians can't handle it, keep your boys at home. Got it? I am tired of hearing you whine. GOD BLESS THE USA!

One, I do not make anti-American statements everytime I post. I present a different opinion, albeit often different one. My opinions will of course be different, I come from a different country, enviroment, educational system, and background. To simple dismiss my opinion with the label "anti-American" is actually one of the things that bothers me the most..... as it is something that I am always trying to promote the idea of debate about issues, or the challenge preconceived notions or opinions.

As for your juvenile and jackass comment about if Canadians can't handle the concept of casualities then stay home...... what I object to is some "hotshot" disregarding his ROE and SOP, causing the death of people who were not in combat or in any threat of enemy action. They were in a training area WITHIN the confines of the coalition base and were in the same area that American forces were using the previous week for training.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
[B]The soldier's actions sound not unlike those of one Lieutenant William Calley--another person who received a relatively light sentence and eventually had it revoked. The rules of wartime are different from the rules of peacetime--and sometimes that turns into people receiving light punishments for heinous or reckless things.

Whoa... hold on there.

Comparing the actions of Calley to those of Schimdt is like comparing those of a murderer to a drunk-driver. Calley knowingly ordered his men to commit murder, by ordering them to fire on and kill unarmed civilians. Schimdt disregarded his ROE and SOP which led to the deaths of the Canadians. Schimdt did not know that his actions would lead to the death of friendlies, while Calley certainly knew that his actions would lead to the death of innocents.

I do agree with you that Calley should not have been granted a pardon, as that doesn't set a very good example or precedent. However I also believe that more should have been said about the helicopter pilots and crew that disobeyed orders and put themself between Calley men and the civilians in order to protect them; these are men that should be honoured for their actions.

[steelepike]

I might have read this wrong but he asked for the possible harsher penalty for what he did.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by steelepike
I might have read this wrong but he asked for the possible harsher penalty for what he did.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the Major is taking a calculated risk that could either see him given a harsher penalty, or be acquitted. With what we have heard (notice I didn't say "know"), I'm not sure that was a wise move on his part, but he has the right to exercise his options to what he believes are his best advantage. Again, that's his absolute right.

One more comment. I have been critical of Rob above because of comments now and in the past, that I believe are somewhat anti-American and anti-American Military. At the very least, somewhat over-nationalistic -- to create a new phrase.

However, it does not help, nor is it fair, to reverse that tactic. Canada has been our ally much more often than not. For the most part they have not "kept their boys home." They were by our side on D-Day and in many other unpleasant situations. Their armed forces acquitted themselves brilliantly in many situations. They continue to work with us protecting the North American continent at NORAD just down the road from me in Colorado Springs.

Rob has said a few things that ruffled our (my) feathers a bit. I wish he would temper his comments some. I think some have been off base. However, I hope there is a difference between commenting and explaining a way I may have been offended, and attacking someone's country -- or him personally.

The older I get, and the more things I experience, the more gray, and less black and white I see.

That's true on what I read from both sides of this debate.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Perhaps Rob was saying that the problem is that this man was given a choice in his punishment. He should never have been given a choice.

This is just my interpretation of Rob's post. Rob, if I am wrong please correct me.

Also, I'm not giving an opinion. I haven't been following this closely enough to give a resonably educated opinion. So please don't go jumping down my throat.

[James]

Just for clarity sake do you mind of I deconstruct to see if I am following all this correctly?

There seem to be three interlocking issues that are behind Rob's Post.

1. His grief and outrage over the death of friend(s) (?) or at least fellow Canadians.

2. Dismay at the way the US treats Canada as an ally.

3. And dissaporoval that a man would violate procedures in a way that actively leads to the death of others. In this case dropping a bomb.

All three are really seperate issues but when woven together into an emotional position I can see why someone (Rob) might show some angst, or strong emotion.

But its almost impossible to answer someone's angst satisfactorily, we can only discuss the issues.

As for number one, there is nothing we can say that can come remotely close to assuaging your grief or bringing those dead men back to life. But you can trust us that we are sorry as much as each of us can empathize with you.

As for number two. Thats really a policy issue of your government. To tell you the truth, I have been surprised a few times when Canada seems to just bow to US pressure, demands, or agenda.

And as for number three the court martial will sort that out. And the only thing I can say is that War is an irrational situation, a rational Army would go home. It ill behooves those of us that have never experienced a shot fired in anger to jump to quickly to conclusions about the actions of people in those situations.