What's wrong with the black female?

[BrandNubian]

jazbri,

Preach it! You make some very good points in your post. All I can say is folks need to pick up When Chickenheads Come Home to Roost by Joan Morgan. She discusses many of these exact issues. Specifically, she discusses the myth of the STRONGBLACKWOMAN. Let me clarify. She sees nothing wrong with black women being strong, but she does she a problem with black women trying to be superwoman, i.e. flexin' out of control, trying to do everything for everyone, except ourselves. It is, of course, extremely important to be involved, and to care about one's community, but STRONGBLACKWOMEN often do this at the expense of their own personal well-being and their intimate relationships often suffer. This may be because they subscribe to the philosophy that they don't need anyone and are not in touch with their emotions, because they are afraid to look "weak." So, jazbri, Joan would probably agree with some of what you are saying.

She also talks about the ENDANGEREDBLACKMAN. Women know what I am talking about, because everyone has heard at least one woman say, "Oh there are no good black men...they're all in prison, gay, dawgs, uneducated...." The list goes on. Joan Morgan also talks about how black men are seen as endangered because they supposedly have a rougher time in our society; they, more than the black women who is educated and "taking all the jobs", are being "oppressed by the man." What these beliefs lead to are a general idea that because men are so endangered, women should lower their standards for these men and not be so successful, etc. etc. (Joan Morgan points out that this is why you see some of the most on point sistahs with the most tired of brothas.) Women feel like they must settle because they really don't have much to choose from.

On the other hand, Morgan seems to say that women are too materialistic and they focus on the wrong things when trying to determine who's a "good" man. (I've heard many men get heated over this one.) Women miss out on perfectly good men when they reject brothas on the basis of the job he has, or the car he drives, etc. etc.

On a personal note, jazbri, I don't think it's a question of a return to our more "feminine" selves - a woman how is successful and on point is certainly feminine! - I think it is more of achieving some sort of balance. People (Women) should put as much effort into their intimate relationships and their personal connections as they do into their professional lives and social contributions.

Sorry for the long post. I guess we both had lots to say!!

Peace Love and Progression
B.N.

------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

[PositivelyAKA]

goodness my my my, ok i agree disagree and don't know, but i appreciate all that was said. hmmmm well let me ask this, why did the black woman all of a sudden feel the need to take care of her self so much and her family/community, could it be that the black man with all his oppression etc. was not getting the job done someone had to take up the slack. my boyfriend is younger then me and still has many years before he gets his degree (if he gets it, cause they are not easy to come by) but i believe in him. he doesn't have a nice car, it runs, its clean. he is intelligent, but i'm more cultured so to speak. i make more money then him, drive a nicer car, i technically am the breadwinner, you know if i looked at it from these perspectives then i would be lowering my standards, its not fair, but unfortunately many many sisters unless they choose to remain single or marry outside their race will have to marry men who are not on their economic or educational level, but as long as he is ambitious, loves you and is going for his then i don't see the problem, that's just life, that's the plate we were handed as blacks in this country, but it will not always be that way, i hope, eventually the majority of the brothers have got to rise to the occassion, so we don't always have to.

[lluvmook98]

All of this is true. Did anyone realize that this is almost an all female conversation?
Here we are in a frat room. ALONE

I guess I am a male basher. That is what my fiance tells me. I just have a hard time when it comes to men and women relating because we think so differently sometimes about some subjects.

For example:
My best friend is married. Her husband was the one who really wanted to get married. (she was still in school.) Guess what, now that she has graduated he feels that his position has been threatened (he said so). She make more but she always has. He expects her to work just as long as he does then come home and cook, clean, entertain guest and then give "it" up. Recently, he came home found that she did not put away the laundry and called her a lazy f-ing b----. Then she said if it is like that (and she is the mother of his child) then maybe she sould not be his wife. So he took her keys (house car and all) and told her to leave. When she tried to get HER car keys he pushed her. The only thing that saved her was her brother heard it all and caught her. She would have hit her head on the corner of a wall. This all took place in front of their child.
I say all of this to say, she tried to yield and be supportive but his lack of accomplishment almost caused her harm.
Where do you draw the line between giving the support that is needed and stroking someones ego.
My experience has been that a lot of men need to feel superior. They need someone to look up to them as a child does to a parent. I read the book Men Are From Mars, Women Are.... The man that wrote the book said that men need to be needed but if you are too needy that is dependent and they don't like that either. They want you independent but not too independent. I don't understand.
I love black men. I want then to feel good about themselves because they are our kings. But why do I have to be made small for him to stand tall?
I want to be his queen and if I remember correctly, queens are just as loved and respected and well taken care of.

Yes, I asked my fiance but he is the same, he is good to me but let me even sound pro something female and he thinks I'm saying I don't need men. I just don't get it.

I can be supportive but I can not be subserviant.
I think some men have their head in the fifties when women did not think that they could breathe without their husband's approval. That is just not me. I can't do it just to help a man feel like he is in control. I don't want to control him but I need him to realize that he does not control me.
(When I say he/him I don't mean my fiance I just mean a man, any man)
I'm sorry that this is so long but it has been bottled up.

------------------
Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc.
L.R.O.G.
#1 Fall 97
Omicron Pi

[Teresa2000]

I guess that I am the only one who found Fatto's comment a little disturbing?

-Teresa

[BrandNubian]

Originally posted by PositivelyAKA:
goodness my my my, ok i agree disagree and don't know, but i appreciate all that was said. hmmmm well let me ask this, why did the black woman all of a sudden feel the need to take care of her self so much and her family/community, could it be that the black man with all his oppression etc. was not getting the job done someone had to take up the slack. my boyfriend is younger then me and still has many years before he gets his degree (if he gets it, cause they are not easy to come by) but i believe in him. he doesn't have a nice car, it runs, its clean. he is intelligent, but i'm more cultured so to speak. i make more money then him, drive a nicer car, i technically am the breadwinner, you know if i looked at it from these perspectives then i would be lowering my standards, its not fair, but unfortunately many many sisters unless they choose to remain single or marry outside their race will have to marry men who are not on their economic or educational level, but as long as he is ambitious, loves you and is going for his then i don't see the problem, that's just life, that's the plate we were handed as blacks in this country, but it will not always be that way, i hope, eventually the majority of the brothers have got to rise to the occassion, so we don't always have to.

PositivelyAKA:

I wasn't sure if you were disagreeing with jazbri's or my post, but either way...I do understand where you are coming from. Somebody had to pick up the slack. And I certainly think that if a man is right with and respects himself and loves and respects you, there shouldn't be a problem, regardless of what kind of car he drives, what kind of degree he has or doesn't have...

Just my two cents...

B.N.

------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

[AKA_Monet]

My brother this year married a caucasian woman. Needless to say, I was devastated when the whole thing went down. YES, I was rather ruthless because I knew he way buying into the fact of what amerikkklan society what televising and advertising. However, I did attend both his wedding ceremony and reception. And although I chose not to be in his wedding (YES, I am the one who will have to face God and explain my actions) it basically broke down to this one thought: Am I going to ruin my brother's and my relationship for the rest of our lives for just a minimum of 2 hours of smiling even if it's fake? Can't I smile for just 2 hours? And I answered yes to both questions...

I am a trying to broaden my experiences and become a Pan Afrikanist, much like W.E.B. Dubois, Nkembe Nkrumah and Ntokaze Shange (sorry for the spelling). The fact is pham, is why would this society want to espouse the development and strengthen the Afrikan family? Isn't it within unity, there is strength? Do you think the europeons would want that to seriously happen, really?

I love my bruhs and they have treated me like crap. And as much crap as I have taken from them, I still love 'em. I can't help myself to the taste of chocolate!

So for those out there that could go either way, never it ain't over till it's over. Ultimately what comes around, goes around and if you ain't straight with yourself, you won't find anyone to make it straight for jah...

I guess that's why HBO's Sex and the City is so popular...

Just my $0.08 cents worth.

[This message has been edited by AKA_Monet (edited October 10, 2000).]

[BrandNubian]

Originally posted by Teresa2000:
I guess that I am the only one who found Fatto's comment a little disturbing?

-Teresa

Teresa:

No I found it disturbing as well. I really didn't know what to say exactly. I didn't want to just snap off I guess I am over here contemplating an intelligent response. I'm contemplating not responding at all. After all, even though I strongly disagree with him, he is entitled to his opinion just as everyone else is. You know what I mean?

Peace Love and Progression
B.N.



------------------
"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

[Teresa2000]

Well Fatto, if you are still out there, please feel free to elaborate on you comment!

-Teresa

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by lluvmook98:
All of this is true. Did anyone realize that this is almost an all female conversation?
Here we are in a frat room. ALONE

I guess I am a male basher. That is what my fiance tells me. I just have a hard time when it comes to men and women relating because we think so differently sometimes about some subjects.

For example:
My best friend is married. Her husband was the one who really wanted to get married. (she was still in school.) Guess what, now that she has graduated he feels that his position has been threatened (he said so). She make more but she always has. He expects her to work just as long as he does then come home and cook, clean, entertain guest and then give "it" up. Recently, he came home found that she did not put away the laundry and called her a lazy f-ing b----. Then she said if it is like that (and she is the mother of his child) then maybe she sould not be his wife. So he took her keys (house car and all) and told her to leave. When she tried to get HER car keys he pushed her. The only thing that saved her was her brother heard it all and caught her. She would have hit her head on the corner of a wall. This all took place in front of their child.
I say all of this to say, she tried to yield and be supportive but his lack of accomplishment almost caused her harm.
Where do you draw the line between giving the support that is needed and stroking someones ego.
My experience has been that a lot of men need to feel superior. They need someone to look up to them as a child does to a parent. I read the book Men Are From Mars, Women Are.... The man that wrote the book said that men need to be needed but if you are too needy that is dependent and they don't like that either. They want you independent but not too independent. I don't understand.
I love black men. I want then to feel good about themselves because they are our kings. But why do I have to be made small for him to stand tall?
I want to be his queen and if I remember correctly, queens are just as loved and respected and well taken care of.

Yes, I asked my fiance but he is the same, he is good to me but let me even sound pro something female and he thinks I'm saying I don't need men. I just don't get it.

I can be supportive but I can not be subserviant.
I think some men have their head in the fifties when women did not think that they could breathe without their husband's approval. That is just not me. I can't do it just to help a man feel like he is in control. I don't want to control him but I need him to realize that he does not control me.
(When I say he/him I don't mean my fiance I just mean a man, any man)
I'm sorry that this is so long but it has been bottled up.

Yall aint NEVER alone ova heeya! Yall know where yall at!!!!!!! We just laid back, checkin' thangs; letting yall let it out- that's all.

[MIDWESTDIVA]

[b][QUOTE]Originally posted by Teresa2000:
I guess that I am the only one who found Fatto's comment a little disturbing?

-Teresa

At first I found the comment disturbing as well. But then I decided to take it for what it's worth. This person is obviously just trying to start some mess in the A Phi A forum and I think everyone realizes that. The best way to deal with this type of post is to ignore it.


AKA_Monet, as usual you have made some very profound statements.

Now I have a very long post to add. This is an email that was sent to me.


All of a sudden I feel like baking....Feel Me Sistahs?

Black Man Recipe

I'm making a black man cake cause I'm hungry as hell.
And the sweet tooth I have, only a brother can break the spell.
Let me reach into my spice rack to see what I can get.
To make a mix that will stick to my stomach you can bet.

2 cups of intelligence,
1 cup of sugar brown.
Cause he's got to be sweet, mental deep and sound.
Cinnamon is always good to accent the taste.
A few cups of culture so he's down for his race.
You see, I won't bite into anything that's not conscious of its own.
That's why I stick to chocolate and leave angel food alone.
I am adding butter cause he must be smooth.
2 raisins for the dimples will also be cool.
I must add some nuts so he can reproduce.
Can't leave him hanging cause I like kids too!
I think I'll add a little salt to balance him out.
And a dominant profile to show he has clout.
For a responsible man I'll throw in some yeast.
I'll add 8 cups of strength and into the oven bake.
turn it to 360 degrees to balance out his mental state.
Now that it's done I'm sorry sistas I won't share the wealth.
That's why I'm sharing the recipe because I'm eating this Black man all by myself.

Good Black men are indeed all around us. We pass them on thestreets, in the malls and the halls at work. Most we can't see because we don't know what a good man looks like. He usually isn't flashy enough or rich enough to turn our heads. He might not wear a suit or push a Lex. He might not have a "body like Arnold with a Denzel face".

But as you mature, you realize it's better to find someone sho's got your back, than someone who turns your head. A good man doesn't wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. He doesn't just tell you what you want to hear, then do the opposite. He doesn't declare how sensitive, caring, sweet, sincere, yadda, yadda he is. (He won't have to because it shows).

He has his own opinions and you may clash, but he doesn't have to degrade you to prove he's right. He even admits at times to being wrong, especially if you are willing to do the same.

A good man isn't going to meet every item on your checklist. He is human with frailties and faults mixed in with all of his wonderful, strong attributes. He needs your love and respect. He needs to feel that you don't live to "catch" him doing something wrong so you can declare "Aha! I knew you were a dog!"

A good man doesn't necessarily give you a huge birthday or Valentine's Day gift. He shows his love in the way that are comfortable to him.

Don't judge him by TV standards. Noone is living that fairy tale for real. You'll miss out on your own fairy tale by buying into the myth that our men are no good.

It's just not true.

Black men, we salute you and thank you for who you are and all you've done.

Now if we could just get some to respond to this thread.......

[Teresa2000]

Fatto, you have got to be joking!

-Teresa

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by PositivelyAKA:
great responses pham!! i love the black family and want to see it grow stronger, not taking anything away from anyone else, but i can't wait to walk down the aisle to my black king. sisters and sorors we must believe in our men and lift them up. support him in his dreams and let him know you believe in him. don't lower your standards, but give the brothers a chance to be what God intended them to be. Powerful Leaders and our bestfriends.

question to the bruhs, could it be that since there are more educated etc. black women per statistics, that some of our men are intimidated by us and choose to marry women who are less independent or who are on a lower educational/economic level? men NEED to feel needed so maybe they don't feel like sisters need them.

There may be some merit in your statement about bruhs being intimidated. Some may be. With the number of educated sistas on the rise, bruhs SEE yall's economic independence daily. When an incarcerated bruh is released, his employment options aren't that great. He wont make the kind of money that pays the bills and affords him the ability to wine and dine yall like yall want. Many of yall know the brothas's plight, and refuse to date him unless he's "drivin'" this kinda car, or livin' in his own. You may not even acknowledge a brotha if his gear aint right; yet THAT brotha could be THE BEST MAN YOU WILL EVER HAVE. But you won't know it unless you lower yo standards a bit, and give the brotha some time.

[lluvmook98]

I don't know. Maybe it is just me! I guess I had some bad speriences (as my students would say.

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by jazbri:
Originally,

I think my original post was not understood for it's intent; however, the later one's are truly touching on the points I was attempting to get across. The point I'm driving that is essentially that we, as sistahs, have truly got to come to terms with WHY are brothas are turning to these other races. It's easy to say that the fault lies with the brothas for making that decision to be with a non-black female. The challenge in my post was for sistahs to seriously conduct a self inventory and RECOGNIZE the role that we play in turning brothas in that direction. I am also interested in what brothas have to say about our character. I am of the opinion that it is not just a 'women in general' issue. I completely believe that it is a 'black woman issue'. I received this e-mail today that I feel totally supports my point. Sorry, it's lengthy...
WHY ARE BLACK WOMEN SCARING OFF THEIR MEN?
Have you met this woman? She has a good job, works hard, earns a good salary. She went to college, got her master's degree; she is intelligent. She is personable, articulate, well-read, interested in everybody and everything. Yet, she's single.
Or maybe you know this one. She is active in the church, faithful, and committed. She sings in the choir, serves on the usher board, attends every committee meeting. Loves the Lord and knows the Word. You'd think that with her command of the Scriptures and the respect of her church members, she'd have a marriage as solid as a rock. But again, no husband.
Or perhaps you recognize the community activist. She's a black lady or as she prefers, an African American woman on the move. She sports a short natural, sometimes cornrow braids, or even dreadlocks. She's an organizer, a motivator, a dynamo. Her work for her people speaks for itself-organizing women for a self-help collective, raising funds for a community cause, educating others around a new issue in South Africa. Black folks look up to her, and white folks know she's a force to be reckoned with. Yet once again, the men leave her alone.
What do these women have in common? They have so much; what is it they lack? Why is it they may be able to hook a man but can't hold him? The women puzzle over this quandary themselves. They gather at professional clubs, at sorority meetings or over coffee at the office and wonder what's wrong with black men. They hold special prayer vigils and fast and pray and beg Jesus to send the men back to church. They find the brothers attending political strategizing sessions or participating in
protests, but when it comes time to go home, the brothers go home to someone else. I know these women because I am all of these women. And after asking over and over again "What's wrong with these men?", it finally dawned on me to ask the question, "WHAT'S WRONG WITH US WOMEN?"
What I have found, and what many of these women have yet to discover, is that the skills that make one successful in the church, community or workplace are not the skills that make one successful in a relationship.
Linear thinking, self-reliance, structured goals and direct actions assist one in getting assignments done, in organizing church or club activities or in positioning oneself for a raise. But relationship-building requires different skills. It requires making decisions that not only to gratify you, but satisfy others. It means doing things that will keep the peace rather than achieve the goal, and sometimes it means creating the peace in the first
place. Maintaining a harmonious relationship will not always allow you to take the straight line between two points. You may have to stoop to conquer or yield to win. In too many cases, when dealing with men you will have to sacrifice being right in order to enjoy being loved. Being acknowledged as the head of the household is an especially important thing for many black men, since their manhood is so often actively challenged everywhere else. Many modern women are so independent, so self-sufficient, so committed to the cause, to the church, to career-or their narrow concepts of same, that their entire personalities project an "I don't need a man" message. So they end up without one. An interested man maybe attracted but, he soon discovers that this sister makes very little space for him in her life. Going to graduate school is a good goal and an option that previous generations of blacks have not had.
But sometimes the achieving woman will place her boyfriend so low on her list of priorities that his interest wanes. Between work, school and homework, she's seldom "there" for him, for the preliminaries that might develop a commitment to a woman. She's too busy to prepare him a home cooked meal or to be a listening ear for his concerns because she
is so occupied with her own. Soon he uses her only for uncommitted sex since to him, she appears unavailable for anything else. Blind to the part she's playing in the problem, she ends up thinking, "Men only want one thing." And she decides she's better off with the degree than the friendship. When she's 45, she may wish she may set different priorities while she was younger. It's not just the busy career girl who can't see the forest for the trees. A couple I know were having marital troubles. During one argument, the husband confronted the wife and asked what she thought they should do about the marriage, what direction they should take. She reached for her Bible and turned to Ephesians. "I know what Paul says and I know what Jesus says about marriage," he told her. "What do you say about our marriage?" Dumbfounded, she could not say anything. Like so many of us, she could recite the Scriptures but could not apply them to everyday living. Before the year was out, the husband had filed for divorce. Women who focus on civil rights or community activism have vigorous, fighting spirits and are prepared to do whatever, whenever, to benefit black people. That's good. That's necessary. But it needs to be kept in perspective. It's too easy to save the world and lose your man. A fighting spirit is important on the battlefield, but a gentler spirit is wanted on the home front. Too many women are winning the battle and losing the home. Sometimes in our determined efforts to be strong believers and hard workers, we contemporary women downplay, denigrate or simply forget our more traditional feminine attributes. Men value women best for the ways we are different from them, not the ways we are the same. Men appreciate us for our grace and beauty. Men enjoy our softness and see it as a way to be in touch with their tender side, a side they dare not show to other men. A hard-working woman is good to have on your committee. But, when a man goes home, he'd prefer a loving partner to a hard worker. It's not an easy transition for the modern black woman to make. It sounds submissive, reactionary, outmoded, oppressive. We have fought so hard for so many things, and rightfully so. We have known so many men
who were shaky, jive and untrustworthy. Yet we must admit that we are shaky, jive and willful in our own ways. Not having a husband allows us to do whatever we want, when and how we want to do it. Having one means we have to share the power and certain
points will have to be surrendered. We are terrified of marriage and commitment-yet dread the prospect of being single and alone. Throwing ourselves into work seems to fill the void without posing a threat. But like any other drug, the escape eventually becomes the cage. To make the break, we need to do less and "be" more. I am learning to "be still and know," to be trusting. I am learning to stop competing with black men and to collaborate with them, to temper my assertive and aggressive energy with softness and serenity. I'm not preaching a
philosophy of "women should be seen and not heard." But I have come to realize that I and many of my smart and independent sisters-are out of touch with our feminine center and therefore out of touch with our men.
Yall' I know that was long... By the end, all I could say was "Amen, you betta preach!"


[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 10, 2000).]

Bruhs! Did yall check her out? Man if I wasn't in the jam I'm in, I would HAVE to find her!

[jazbri]

What you talkin 'bout Original Ape?