Politics: Islam and Terrorism...are the two connected???

[DoggyStyle82]

Blackwatch

Your entire post misses the point of this thread. Its not about Americas politics or past sins versus Islam. It is about whetehr or not there is something inherent in the practice of the Islamic faith that leads to violent extremism.

Politically speaking, America is in as much debt to 3rd World nations as they are to anyone else. America actually has a negative trade balance with Nigeria, Congo, Ivory Coast, and Saudi Arabia. Yes, it is Democracy that allows a foreign immigrant religios minority woman to even file a complaint. Religious sensibilities aside, how the heck are you gonna take a picture for i.d purposes covered from head to toe? Secondly, in the country where she came from, I highly doubt if a non-muslim could have complained in the same fashion to the authorities.

Yes, what is right and wrong is measured by the prism of your personal ethos, but LoveSpell6 whole point was that too many people view the Taliban and Suicide Bombers as speaking or exerting the truth of Islam, which for those of us raised in a Democracy bastardizes the Truth of True Islam. Shani should not have to defend her religion, but it will always be on trial when women are flogged in public squares for daring to learn to read or when female American soldiers who are fighting to protect SaudiArabia, are forced to dress in burkas and forbidden to drive or read the Bible. Just as when so-called Christians bomb abortion clinics or the next time Jerry Falwell puts his foot in his mouth. All religious philoshophies are better when they are separated from politics.

[Shani26]

DoggyStyle, I agree with you Muslims in this country are not faced with same restrictions as those in the middle east. I just hope you realize that the majority of the restrictions you listed in terms of genital mutilation, women not being allowed to drive, voting rights, arranged marriages..etc..are culturally inflicted and not religiously. Basically it's politics that puts these restrictions on Muslims and not Islam. Also, just a side note...

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82 Religious sensibilities aside, how the heck are you gonna take a picture for i.d purposes covered from head to toe?

The sole reason for her complaint was based on the fact that it is her religious RIGHT in this DEMOCRACY (that you rightfully pointed out)...to be covered therefore I don't think it is fair to put religious sensibilities aside in this case...On every licence picture my mother has taken she has been covered...not from head to toe but her hair was covered and so was mine. In all honesty I think Blackwatch's point, as I understand it, is valid in this discussion. Instead of Islam promoting terrorism perhaps we need to take a closer look at our policies and see if that's where the problem rests. At least that's how I understood Blackwatch's post, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not trying to pick apart anyone's posts...some valid points have been made...and sometimes I need and can offer a little clarification that's all.

[Blackwatch]

"Politics: Islam and terrorism, are the two connected??? " Isn't this the name of this thread. When the question of what role does Islam have in promoting terrorism, I think that we have to consider everything that leads to terrorism. I think that Doggystyle is correct to point out some of the things that theocratic Islamic Countries may be doing in other lands, but I think what my posts are saying is that Islam is not the sole reason behind terrorism. As I said in the very first post, radicalism is not taught in any of the Abrahamic religions, (vigilance and perserverence maybe, but radicalism, I think not). I thought the example with David Walker and Nat turner served well in this debate. Islam does advocate more for a theocratic state, but can we say that this alone is why planes were flown into buildings on 9-11, especially considering American foreign policy and the issues with interpretation that we have already hashed through with this thread? I think it would be shortsighted to do so.


Doggystyle, I am not saying to ignore the attrocities that you mention, but I am saying that we must be careful to talk about what is true Islam, especially when I know I myself am not a Muslim. Also, I have talked to too many Muslim friends who have differing views on many things about the faith, just as many Christians differ on many issues abut the Christian faith. It seems to me that you are saying that the truth about Islam flouishes in America because the Islam we see in America is "protected" by American democracy. This sounds a little culturally biased to me. I am not as confident in American culture to assert that the "real true Islam" is practiced only by people who are in America or have American cultural sensibilities. Polygamy is an American cultural anathema, but I dare not say the "best" Muslims are the ones who do not practice it, especially if a reading of the Islamic faith may find the practice suitable. The continued enslavement of non-Muslim Africans that you point out is wrong, and though you state that Muslim law permits it, it doesn't mean that Islam promotes the dehumanization of human beings. What you see there is an interpretation of law through the lens of culture, which could be wrong. Just as people may gleam from the Bible that women should not preach. That is a reading of the Bible, that could be wrong. But does that mean that the Christian faith condones patriarchy and the oppression of women? No it doesn't when you consider other passages of scripture that affirm the humanity of all people, men, women, jew, gentile, etc. It is all up to interpretation. This could also be the case with Islam.


All I am saying is that when we consider terrorism, don't just think that it is Islam by itself that is the cause of it all. Let us consider other factors such as American foreign policy as well as oppression on a global scale. If we focus solely on Islam and think that radicalism comes from Islamic teachings, then I think the onus comes off of America for being a responsible global citizen that its creed calls it to be (freedom, liberty, and justice for all?). If we focus on Islam, we stop speaking truth to power in the American government. There are things that America is gulity of that we ought to call on the table. Focusing on Islam makes it seem as though it is just some crazy radicals who practice the "wrong Islam" who have no legitmate issues with America. Then we cease to be self critical, which then has us believing things like "this is and issue of good (U.S.) vs. evil (arab muslims)" and ignore the truth about American foreign policy. This is where you will here sayings like "I like good Muslims" and sentiments like "American" Islam is the "best" Islam. Should Islam be ignored in this debate, not at all. But I think it serves us better to look at this through the lens of politics, and not blame an interpretative faith for the attrocities we see here on Earth.
Blackwatch!!!!!!

[moe.ron]

I find it quite interesting that this conversation on Islam mainly concentrated on the Arab states. Yet, the most populated muslim population is in South East Asia. And many speak Islam as a single entity when there are different factions of it. From the major Sunni and Shiia, to the different branches of it, from Sufi ro Wahabi. Much of the problem has to do with the spread of Wahabinism of Saudi Arabia.

I lived in Indonesia and have talked to members of Muhammadiyah and NU, two Muslim organizations that each claimed to have 15 million to 20 million people, they all complained that Saudi Arabia is exporting this form of Islam which is Alien to the local Islamic tradition. FYI, the current President of Indonesian is a women, and the country is secular. Both groups have made it clear that they don't wish a theocracy form of government for Indonesia. Both organizations have kept away from politics, except when they were also part of the struggle to get rid of Suharto, however members of both groups tend to be members of PKB (ex-Pres. Wahid, or Gus Dur, party) or PAN (Amien Rais, current speaker of the Parliment).

Now, I'm living in South Africa and found out that the biggest supporter of Apartheid were the Dutch Reform Church, which used the bible to legitimize the system. In fact, I've been to the central of Apartheidism in University of Stellenbosch, and talk to some of the older professor there. It wasn't the political science or sociology department that created the system but the theology department. What I'm saying is that religion can be used by anybody to legitimize immoral acts.