AOII Eliminates Legacy Policy

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by carnation

Sure we can make a big deal about inclusiveness and so on, but will we be poaching on NPHC territory? And making enemies? Because Delta and AKA rule this city and I can't see the alums I know being thrilled with their daughters choosing a different path.

Ironically, this is the very issue with our legacy policies.

There are certain expectations that some moms put on their daughters and/or a chapter and/or their national organization to essentially guarantee their daughter a bid.

And I say moms, because honestly, in all the angry leagacy-based phone calls I've heard about over the last 15+ years (since I've been Greek) both here on Greekchat and elsewhere, 99% of them have been from moms (and not grandmothers, biological sisters, etc.).

And what is this 'poaching' you speak of? Why would anyone be upset with a young woman going down the path she sees as being the best for herself, based on knowledge and positive experiences; a place where she feels most comfortable? If someone's mad about that, well... f*** them, I say. If that's a problem for ANY of us in Greek life, no matter the council or organization, then we're all failing miserably.

We need to allow women to make the best decision for themselves. Without pressure. Without guilt. Without making them feel 'less than'. And all of us (adults) need to stop putting so much social pressure on teenagers and/or making them feel like the sorority they join will determine their lot in life and how successful they are, or who they'll marry, or how much money they'll make, or how popular they'll be.

Maybe some people finally stood up and said they've had enough of all that. And good for them, I say!

[carnation]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

And what is this 'poaching' you speak of? Why would anyone be upset with a young woman going down the path she sees as being the best for herself, based on knowledge and positive experiences; a place where she feels most comfortable? If someone's mad about that, well... f*** them, I say. If that's a problem for ANY of us in Greek life, no matter the council or organization, then we're all failing miserably.

Here's what the 'poaching' is about: suddenly NPC and our groups have sent out directives to increase our diversity, even including classes and think groups on it. Some universities have bewailed the NPC/NIC lack of diversity, and unaffiliated people (and neither group has a clue) are forever posting sneeringly about sororities only having skinny white girls. I have seen people try to start discussions about this on FB and get dogpiled.

Sen has made a great post about why so many black women prefer NPHC (and this is pretty much what I've observed in the last 40+ years--PNMs choose the NPHC because the most involved women in their communities did). I would love to see the NPC hierarchy meet with NPHC and have a dialogue about this so they will quit blaming and punishing their groups for lack of diversity. We can try all we want but college students will go for the experience they prefer.

[Cheerio]

Originally Posted by carnation

Here's what the 'poaching' is about: suddenly NPC and our groups have sent out directives to increase our diversity, even including classes and think groups on it. Some universities have bewailed the NPC/NIC lack of diversity, and unaffiliated people (and neither group has a clue) are forever posting sneeringly about sororities only having skinny white girls. I have seen people try to start discussions about this on FB and get dogpiled.

Sen has made a great post about why so many black women prefer NPHC (and this is pretty much what I've observed in the last 40+ years--PNMs choose the NPHC because the most involved women in their communities did).

I would love to see the NPC hierarchy meet with NPHC and have a dialogue about this so they will quit blaming and punishing their groups for lack of diversity. We can try all we want but college students will go for the experience they prefer.

Might more than a few college administrators need to raise their level of understanding by also participating in this NPC/NPHC sorority diversification dialog of which you speak?

[DGTess]

Appreciate the NPHC insights on this. My experience has been more the "women in my family have always been Deltas so I will too" than otherwise, but my experience is limited.

I caution the greek community about seeing this only as a white/black issue. Unless we can show ALL women of color the benefits of membership and encourage them to seek it, we hamstring ourselves.

[PersistentDST]

I think the diversity conversation is very layered. There are more reasons than just having options.

It’s also about having an honest and deep look at current NPC membership. Is everyone ready for inclusiveness? Organizations can post about support for diversity and social justice all they want, but still have sisters wearing blackface on Snapchat or proudly attend a “Mexican” party, where actives are dresses as stereotypes. I’ve even seen troubling comments from alumnae in the past few weeks. Those things hurt the reputations of all of the NPC and damage the things you are working towards. As a POC PNM (or a parent), I may second guess participation in recruitment when these things happen yearly at different schools across the country. It’s not that we generalize, we know it’s not everyone, but no one wants to land in the system where it happens. No one wants to be down the hall from the “sisters” that smile in your face and then say the n-word on social media. No one wants to complain to their chapter leadership about micro-aggressions, only for nothing to be done about it. No one wants to be the token.

It’s not just about parents wanting their daughters in the NPHC because of culture and tradition, it’s also about safe spaces. Will they be supported and have a positive sorority experience in the NPC? I’d rather have my loved ones be GDI’s than potentially have them deal with discrimination.

At this point, the inclusiveness focus should really be on two groups:

1. The diverse actives and alumnae who fell in love with your sororities and may have some perspectives about what can be done for your membership, because they are your sisters. Before I would speak to anyone, I’d give them the opportunity to talk about their experiences and share ideas.
2. The diverse PNM’s who are committed to the recruitment process. The goal should be to see, understand and respect each persons differences (just say no to “colorblindness“), but to treat each PNM with the same kindness, consideration and expectations.

While I appreciate the concerns about poaching from the NPHC, it’s a non-issue for us. However, clear and present are the POC PNM’s on message boards asking if they should consider recruitment. Those are the young ladies that need the inclusion commitment from your organizations.

[SWTXBelle]

Apparently the idea behind removing legacy courtesies is inclusion; I don't think that is the best way to go about it, but would like to see what else NPC groups are doing. Here is a link to Gamma Phi's response (They also had a roundtable with sisters of color - no link to that) :

https://www.gammaphibeta.org/AntiRacismResources

[Cheerio]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Apparently the idea behind removing legacy courtesies is inclusion; I don't think that is the best way to go about it, but would like to see what else NPC groups are doing. Here is a link to Gamma Phi's response (They also had a roundtable with sisters of color - no link to that) :

https://www.gammaphibeta.org/AntiRacismResources

What a well-thought-out approach GPhiB is taking in response to the subjects at hand.

[navane]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

They also had a roundtable with sisters of color - no link to that

Ugh....I missed that presentation and I was hoping that IHQ would post a link to the video so that I could still watch it.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by navane

Ugh....I missed that presentation and I was hoping that IHQ would post a link to the video so that I could still watch it.

I think they said there might be more.

[joliebelle]

Originally Posted by navane

Ugh....I missed that presentation and I was hoping that IHQ would post a link to the video so that I could still watch it.

As someone who attended the round table, I am glad that it was not recorded. There were a lot of deeply personal conversations that were shared by BIPOC that I would not want publicized.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I think they said there might be more.

There will be! I thought they emailed the second one, but can't seem to find it in my email anymore. Definitely connect with someone from the Belonging & Inclusion Task Force

[andthen]

Originally Posted by PersistentDST

I think the diversity conversation is very layered. There are more reasons than just having options.

It’s also about having an honest and deep look at current NPC membership. Is everyone ready for inclusiveness? Organizations can post about support for diversity and social justice all they want, but still have sisters wearing blackface on Snapchat or proudly attend a “Mexican” party, where actives are dresses as stereotypes. I’ve even seen troubling comments from alumnae in the past few weeks. Those things hurt the reputations of all of the NPC and damage the things you are working towards. As a POC PNM (or a parent), I may second guess participation in recruitment when these things happen yearly at different schools across the country. It’s not that we generalize, we know it’s not everyone, but no one wants to land in the system where it happens. No one wants to be down the hall from the “sisters” that smile in your face and then say the n-word on social media. No one wants to complain to their chapter leadership about micro-aggressions, only for nothing to be done about it. No one wants to be the token.

It’s not just about parents wanting their daughters in the NPHC because of culture and tradition, it’s also about safe spaces. Will they be supported and have a positive sorority experience in the NPC? I’d rather have my loved ones be GDI’s than potentially have them deal with discrimination.

At this point, the inclusiveness focus should really be on two groups:

1. The diverse actives and alumnae who fell in love with your sororities and may have some perspectives about what can be done for your membership, because they are your sisters. Before I would speak to anyone, I’d give them the opportunity to talk about their experiences and share ideas.
2. The diverse PNM’s who are committed to the recruitment process. The goal should be to see, understand and respect each persons differences (just say no to “colorblindness“), but to treat each PNM with the same kindness, consideration and expectations.

While I appreciate the concerns about poaching from the NPHC, it’s a non-issue for us. However, clear and present are the POC PNM’s on message boards asking if they should consider recruitment. Those are the young ladies that need the inclusion commitment from your organizations.

Thank you for sharing your perspective, this is just very well said. While I'm not African American, I am a person of color and a daughter of an immigrant parent, who didn't have the opportunity to attend college. Thus didn't have the privilege of being a legacy.

I've been following this thread, and I have been doing a lot of thinking. Granted I am a member of an NPC group who might have had a potential legacy (my step-daughter). I know for some the timing of this change might seem a bit off.

For me being in college and not being a legacy provided a lot of additional stress going through rush/recruitment (showing my age). I think at many schools there is tent talk even in the best of worlds. Hearing this and that from others about not being a legacy might hurt you etc. In the end things worked out but, in my personal opinion dropping the legacy policy is a start to providing a more stable playing field.

Its a long time in coming not only to perhaps alleviate a barrier but more and more people are attending colleges and by virtue of this become involved in greek life. As more and more individuals become members and then have kids of their own there is bound to be a proliferation of legacies, as compared to the early part of the 20th century where not a lot of women were attending college. Simply put regardless of the reason I just don't see the practice as sustainable long term.

Yes when there is such a big shift there is going to be some who are all for it and those against it. But honestly groups need to evolve and really need to look within their own membership beyond those who have remained actively involved past college, what will help sustain and help these organizations. After college as some have noted there is a bit of attrition from NPC group members. Why? I feel as though this is the elephant in the room that no one wants to address. Even if your legacy decides to join your sisterhood still doesn't mean that mom/daughter will continue involvement with ABC after DD graduates. Even within my own geographic area outside of the alumnae group I'm involved with there are loads of sisters who live in the area and choose not to be involved? Again why? Often times when I am out volunteering somewhere I will often see NPHC members or even MCG's represented and they represent their organizations proudly. For whatever reason at least where I'm at this doesn't seem to be a big thing or as much of a priority.

All this to say I feel like groups should be seeking out members who really want to be involved and participate not just for their collegiate years but beyond. Look I understand that sometimes life happens to all of us as adults, illness, kids, aging parents etc. But at least from my vantage point there is a small yet vocal portion of the population that feel as though ending legacies will signal doom and gloom. But frankly and take it from someone who doesn't adapt well to change, we do need to evolve. We do need to at least crack the door open to provide opportunities to be more inclusive especially at the campus level.

For those of you who raised daughters sharing your experience with your sorority and the joys of it that is wonderful. And no one is diminishing that or telling you to not share those stories. But at the same time, your kids need to find their own path to which ever group suits them the best. So they might not share in the ABC sisterhood with you, but instead decide hey I'm more of an XYZ, that's still something to be celebrated because your child is exercising healthy independence.

If you get to the bottom of this my apologies for the long rant, but this topic has been weighing on me for a while.

[Cheerio]

Relax. The idea of changing a legacy policy isn't a Unanimous Agreement decree from the NPC. Some NPC groups chose to change the way they recruit their legacies. For these groups legacies are still legacies, only now recruited in a different manner from the old norm. Only time will tell if these groups have made a solid decision


On another subject, IMHO every PNM ought to want to cherish, enjoy and grow with the sisters and ideals of any group into which she may be invited. Some here on GC seem very afraid there will be Fall 2020 new members feeling a strong need to eventually and intentionally tear apart NPC sorority rituals/constitutions/friendships/education standards/etc.. If you are one who feels this fear, show these potential destroyers the grace, beauty, wisdom and love your sisterhood truly possesses. Sharing the truth with others allows others to share their true selves with you.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by Cheerio

Some here on GC seem very afraid there will be Fall 2020 new members feeling a strong need to eventually and intentionally tear apart NPC sorority rituals/constitutions/friendships/education standards/etc.. If you are one who feels this fear, show these potential destroyers the grace, beauty, wisdom and love your sisterhood truly possesses. Sharing the truth with others allows others to share their true selves with you.

We have already seen them in recent years. I have heard about women who have even tried to upset rush parties. Some stay quiet until they join. From what I've been told, I doubt these people would be impressed by our grace, beauty, and wisdom.

[carnation]

What it comes down to, in one part, is what members were told when they joined:"your daughters will get this benefit (______ ) if they rush." Now they won't. That was one of the few benefits you get as an alum, and it's gone. Don't tell me no one freaks out when a benefit disappears in other organizations, I have seen people come apart when their credit card or grocery store or HOA changed benefits after years.

Our organizations have breathed "legacy" for years. My sorority has a legacy song that we sing frequently; others have legacy organizations for young women, and others have legacy clothing for babies and children. Some sororities have special legacy weekends for teenaged girls where they stay in the house. Is it any wonder that women hope their daughters will pledge their house? It must be wonderful to share initiation and rituals with a daughter!

One thing that I've seen online in the past week that bothers me: the attacks on women who are protesting the policy. Women who don't even know the protesting member are dogpiling and calling their sisters awful names. It's no wonder that there are women who are resigning or withdrawing monetary support. Who wants to belong anymore if you're attacked because of your opinion?

In some ways, it doesn't seem like a big deal: your legacy daughter doesn't have an automatic invitation to second parties and if she makes it to prefs, she won't necessarily be on the first bid list (at least 1 sorority hasn't done the latter for years). In truth, removing this will not increase diversity because sororities will always find a way to ask outstanding women back. I have never heard of a outstanding woman whom a sorority regretfully cut because they had to ask back a legacy they didn't want. They found a way.

Claiming that dropping these legacy benefits will increase diversity sounds so grand. I think some groups grabbed this moment to drop a policy they weren't fond of so they could look noble. Actually, it means less anguished phone calls from alums and no more.

And making decisions like these without input from the stakeholders? Baaaad move.

[TriDeltaSallie]

Originally Posted by Cheerio

Some here on GC seem very afraid there will be Fall 2020 new members feeling a strong need to eventually and intentionally tear apart NPC sorority rituals/constitutions/friendships/education standards/etc.. If you are one who feels this fear, show these potential destroyers the grace, beauty, wisdom and love your sisterhood truly possesses. Sharing the truth with others allows others to share their true selves with you.

I watched my ritual online this weekend. A chapter sister saw my comments on here and gave me a heads up that it had already been changed in recent years and that I could watch it online.

I didn't want to watch it because I knew it would make me sad. I knew exactly which part would be removed and I was correct. The most beautiful legend and imagery from our ritual was completely removed. Why? Strong references to Christianity and Christ.

The "potential destroyers" as you called them are already in our groups and actively changing things. This isn't fear we feel. It's sadness and betrayal. I was naive to think that some things really mattered - like the permanence of our ritual.