Alpha Phi Smoking Gun Just Published on IG

[Sen's Revenge]

Question:

I follow the IG page and I believe it.

However,

What is MS supposed to look like if not this?

And don't say we don't talk about MS here because that horse done left the barn.

Note: I am not asking for any of the other 25 to go line by line how they do MS, but more like how they would amend the alleged friendinheaven process so it's more in line with that you think it should be.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

Question:

I follow the IG page and I believe it.

However,

What is MS supposed to look like if not this?

And don't say we don't talk about MS here because that horse done left the barn.

Note: I am not asking for any of the other 25 to go line by line how they do MS, but more like how they would amend the alleged friendinheaven process so it's more in line with that you think it should be.

I'm confused. Are you asking on what we base our MS decisions? Is it not obvious that putting looks as the most important aspect, far above all else, is a recipe for disaster? Is it even a question that this being taught by the organization's leadership is misguiding the collegiate members and setting them up not only to fail, but to fill their chapters with members who have questionable values and cause issues, some which may lead to criminal charges and/or public humiliation?

Or am I misinterpreting your question?

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I'm confused. Are you asking on what we base our MS decisions? Is it not obvious that putting looks as the most important aspect, far above all else, is a recipe for disaster? Is it even a question that this being taught by the organization's leadership is misguiding the collegiate members and setting them up not only to fail, but to fill their chapters with members who have questionable values and cause issues, some which may lead to criminal charges and/or public humiliation?

Or am I misinterpreting your question?

But there have been NPC chapters of women who have questionable values who aren't pretty. That's not really my concern.

My question is whether someone will lay out what the ideal selection and vetting process ought to be.

[33girl]

Looks/appearance figure into it, sure. But so does Gpa, extracurricular involvement, and personality. You assign a value to each of those things and average them out somehow.

Every group does this a little differently, and I’m betting every chapter does it differently. (I seriously doubt that the ABC chapter with 39 members follows the same procedure as the ABC chapter with 409 members.)

If, as described in the Beta Delta letter, you have a woman come through who is beloved by everyone in the chapter who knows her, has extracurricular involvement and good grades - and your national is telling you to kick her to the curb because her looks are inadequate- that’s what everyone is saying is completely wrong.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Looks/appearance figure into it, sure. But so does Gpa, extracurricular involvement, and personality. You assign a value to each of those things and average them out somehow.

Every group does this a little differently, and I’m betting every chapter does it differently. (I seriously doubt that the ABC chapter with 39 members follows the same procedure as the ABC chapter with 409 members.)

If, as described in the Beta Delta letter, you have a woman come through who is beloved by everyone in the chapter who knows her, has extracurricular involvement and good grades - and your national is telling you to kick her to the curb because her looks are inadequate- that’s what everyone is saying is completely wrong.

So question.... (and you know me, so you know I am coming from a place of understanding and not disrespect)

Why should looks figure into it at all?

For example, what if there is a category that says whether or not a PNM has a professional or put-together hair style.

Then a black or biracial girl comes in with dreadlocks.

What happens when Karen with the clipboard decides to take points off because she has never seen a black hairstyle?

Or a Muslim woman who covers?

I guess what I am saying as an outsider to the process is that what Alpha Phi is alleged to be doing doesn't seem that much different from what the system does as a whole. It's just that one way is codified and organized and the other way is more casual.

[Sciencewoman]

I think you can make a direct correlation between all the rec request/recruitment advice forums and what NPC sororities typically look for in members -- strong academics, character, commitment to volunteering and community engagement, etc. I don't think any group's rec form has a space for "hotness score." That's overtly different than suggesting PNMs be well-groomed and appropriately attired during recruitment, just as people should be for a variety of situations that have a dress code. What bothers me is that there appears to be a directed sell-out here -- swapping values-based recruitment in favor of stereotypical "hot" looks. If true, it feels like a sell out to Greek Rank, Total Frat Move, and any other misogynist external evaluation venue, in my mind.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Sciencewoman

I think you can make a direct correlation between all the rec request/recruitment advice forums and what NPC sororities typically look for in members -- strong academics, character, commitment to volunteering and community engagement, etc. I don't think any group's rec form has a space for "hotness score." That's overtly different than suggesting PNMs be well-groomed and appropriately attired during recruitment, just as people should be for a variety of situations that have a dress code. What bothers me is that there appears to be a directed sell-out here -- swapping values-based recruitment in favor of stereotypical "hot" looks. If true, it feels like a sell out to Greek Rank, in my mind.

Fair enough.

I see it as fruit from the same tree.

[Sciencewoman]

Your point about codifying is interesting to me, Sen. I think about that when our faculty votes on tenure and promotion decisions. Yes, we have a clearly written rubric for teaching, scholarship, and service expectations; faculty prepare substantive portfolios and they are reviewed and discussed...but the process still involves an anonymous, secret ballot vote, and any other professor can secretly vote however they want for whatever reason and no one will ever know. If any group's process involves any secret ballot procedure, individual judgments that may vere from the organization's standards will be impossible to avoid. It's the alleged overt/official priority that is being placed on looks that is raising eyebrows and blood pressures, as I see it.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Sciencewoman

Your point about codifying is interesting to me, Sen. I think about that when our faculty votes on tenure and promotion decisions. Yes, we have a clearly written rubric for teaching, scholarship, and service expectations; faculty prepare substantive portfolios and they are reviewed and discussed...but the process still involves an anonymous, secret ballot vote, and any other professor can secretly vote however they want for whatever reason and no one will ever know. If any group's process involves any secret ballot procedure, individual judgments that may vere from the organization's standards will be impossible to avoid. It's the alleged overt/official priority that is being placed on looks that is raising eyebrows and blood pressures, as I see it.

I hear you.

[sigmagirl2000]

I have volunteered on campuses where chapters have not taken black women or other minorities. I cannot speak to their membership selection as I am not involved, however I can say that we gained several amazing members who have gone on to do amazing things as chapter and alumnae membership in our organization. I consider this our win and their missing out.
And would hope that anyone (collegiate members) would be able to discern personal hygiene and appropriate dress and hairstyle these days regardless of ethnicity, but alas. I am often wrong and darn, this gives more food for thought as always.

I take the major offense here to be that the NPC is focusing on values based recruitment and appearance alone should not be a core value for any NPC organization. I have seen allegations that the organization is question is actively seeking out grade risks, risk management risks, morals risks, etc. in order to have the prettiest and most sought after chapters. That completely goes against values based recruiting and a panhellenic sisterhood. .

My heart hurts for members of this organization who can’t support where the organization is heading. As AZTheta said, (or alluded to- I’m not so good as paraphrasing) this choice by one of 26 organizations could cause the demise of all of them. And that’s not okay when potentially 26 organizations have in the past created supportive networks for young collegiate women and their alumnae and most continue to do so to this day, but may get impacted and punished for the actions of one.

[thetalady]

Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000

I have seen allegations that the organization is question is actively seeking out grade risks, risk management risks, morals risks, etc. in order to have the prettiest and most sought after chapters. That completely goes against values based recruiting and a panhellenic sisterhood. .

I wouldn't say they are actually seeking out the girls that are grade risks, RM risks, girls with behavioral issues, etc. I think the issue is that this organization is IGNORING all of those issues and recruiting based almost solely on the basis of "hotness".

[sigmagirl2000]

Dang that was some crappy English and syntax there. Good thing I teach math and not English. Apologies for anyone trying to decipher that message.

[33girl]

The wisest tack for NPC to take would be to definitively show that A Phi really is cheating or otherwise disobeying rules at rush (an NPC function) rather than criticize their methods of membership selection (an individual org function) and discipline them in some way because of the former.

Interfering with an individual organization’s MS policies (no matter how repugnant) is a bell that can’t be un-rung.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by 33girl

The wisest tack for NPC to take would be to definitively show that A Phi really is cheating or otherwise disobeying rules at rush (an NPC function) rather than criticize their methods of membership selection (an individual org function) and discipline them in some way because of the former.

Interfering with an individual organization’s MS policies (no matter how repugnant) is a bell that can’t be un-rung.

Now this I understand and agree with.

I'm sure it's what you all were saying all along, I just needed a slower path there.

[sigmagirl2000]

I think that based on many accounts I have heard from people on the ground in various organizations as primary recruitments with this organization involved that there have been pnms known and shared to be substance, grade, risk management risks and chapters have notified each other so that they don’t get the “bad egg” shall it be and and this organization has actively pursued such women with documented issues (shall we call them here, whether they be legal documents, social media, etc.) were actively sought out by the organization if they still fit a certain look. That to me is questionable. I’m not speaking for any organization, only myself when I say that I am concerned about the leadership of such organization and how it will not only affect their members but the NPC as a whole. That being said, I can’t think that the NPC is sitting back unaware and not having talks or plans that the rest of us are unaware of.