A member stomps on the American flag....what do you do? - Page 2

valkyrie · #16 09-21-2002, 08:01 PM

I think that you should either:

a) give him props for expressing his opinion, even if you don't like the way he did it because that takes guts, or

b) ask him to replace the flag and otherwise ignore it, if he's really just looking for attention.

I strongly feel that the flag is just a *symbol* of what makes our country what it is -- which is a country based upon certain values, one of the most important being freedom of expression. He's trying to shock you, but you and the rest of the members have the power to refuse to be shocked. Okay, so he stomped on the flag and some of you didn't like that. Is he still your brother and do you still care about him as such? If yes, let it go.

Optimist Prime · #17 09-21-2002, 08:33 PM

The American Flag is a symbol. A symbol of violently overthrowing laws that were unfair. If it has become a symbol of unfairness then that issue needs to be addressed and corrected. Kicking someone out because he has a differrent opinion than you is very brotherly. In fact, that is the opposite of what brotherhood means. Brotherhood=unconditional love. Do not be your brother's keeper. Be your brother's brother. If you care about someone enough to call him a brother then you should love him unconditionally. If you call some one a brother then you should find out what is going on with him, and why he did that, othewise YOU suck as brother. I love my brothers

Tom Earp · #18 09-22-2002, 06:36 PM

Right or wrong, The Flag Of The United States of America represents all of the 50 States and its people! You And Me!

To Disrespect Our Flag, is to disrespect the symbol of what we are.

I would boot the Dum Ass! Right or wrong, We are what we are! Not OUR GOVT playing Games, But the People such as each and everyone of use on this site!

I am a very Profound American, but I do not agree with everything that is being done! I dont like it!

But if bombs started going off in our citys, killing innocent people as 9-11 what do you think you would do and feel!

I have been in this position so I know from what I speak! HAVE YOU?

damasa · #19 09-22-2002, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Optimist Prime
The American Flag is a symbol. A symbol of violently overthrowing laws that were unfair. If it has become a symbol of unfairness then that issue needs to be addressed and corrected. Kicking someone out because he has a differrent opinion than you is very brotherly. In fact, that is the opposite of what brotherhood means. Brotherhood=unconditional love. Do not be your brother's keeper. Be your brother's brother. If you care about someone enough to call him a brother then you should love him unconditionally. If you call some one a brother then you should find out what is going on with him, and why he did that, othewise YOU suck as brother. I love my brothers

I don't know if that was directed towards me, but never tell me that I suck as a brother. You don't know our brotherhood and you certainly don't know me. I understand that he had a right to protest, but he used a flag that wasn't owned by him, he used a flag owned by the fraternity.

This certain brother has had a history of problems and violence in our fraternity. This is the latest issue in his outspoken hatred of our country (or so it seems). Earlier this year he had a confrontation with one of our African-American members and he proceeded to use racial slurs. He was suspended at that time. Now this happens. He has been in trouble before that, at one point threatening a girl in a sorority on campus which almost brought our fraternity into a legal battle (luckily all charges were dropped).

Like I said before, I understand that he was enforcing his right to freedome of speech, but it is problem after problem after problem with this brother and I personally feel that he should be expelled.

Then again, maybe the ass beating he got after the incident by another brother was enough of a punishment? I don't know, but now that brother is also going up for review.

Again, I can't kick anyone out by myself, nor do I want to, but I feel that there is no other option.

As for props, he gets none from me, the guy has shamed me at this point and it is going to take a lot for me to be able to look at him the same way.

As for the "you suck as a brother" comment, I'm sorry but I'm probably one of the best brothers in my fraternity. I'll do anything for my brothers and I work my ass off for the fraternity. But there comes a poimt, and if he were to get booted (which I feel should have already happened) I think it is because of his unbrotherly actions (not the stomping on the flag) which is more like the icing on the cake kind of thing.

Why did he do it? He has told some of the brothers that he simply "hates this country." Why I don't know, but he is a nationl French citizen, not a natural American citizen.

Optimist Prime · #20 09-22-2002, 06:51 PM

That wasn't directed at anyone. It was hypothetical.

Dionysus · #21 09-22-2002, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by damasa

This certain brother has had a history of problems and violence in our fraternity. This is the latest issue in his outspoken hatred of our country (or so it seems). Earlier this year he had a confrontation with one of our African-American members and he proceeded to use racial slurs. He was suspended at that time. Now this happens. He has been in trouble before that, at one point threatening a girl in a sorority on campus which almost brought our fraternity into a legal battle (luckily all charges were dropped).

You guys should kick him to the curb. He appears to be a chapter eye-sore.

starang21 · #22 09-22-2002, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CutiePie2000
The only country that can hold a candle to our countries is Australia, and that's only because the weather is so fantastic!

is it really that nice?

starang21 · #23 09-22-2002, 07:17 PM

make him buy a new flag. but don't kick him out. he's excercising his first amendment. isn't that the same thing that the frats down at Auburn were doing when they put on blackface? if that's free speech, then this is too.

Eupolis · #24 09-22-2002, 08:46 PM

It sounds to me like there's a lot of history of problems with this guy in the chapter.

If you're thinking about expelling him, I recommend that you try to consider all of the relevant circumstances. I do not think that anyone should be expelled solely for expressing a politically charged viewpoint. On the other hand, destruction of fraternity property does merit some sort of discipline, and it could be that the history this fellow has had with the chapter means that more discipline is warranted.

The fraternity should carefully consider how to weigh the freedom of expression question during its deliberations. As a legal matter, the First Amendment protects the individual from government punishment for his expression. It does not protect him from fraternity discipline. This does not mean that you don't still have to think about the question of free speech; it just means that there's no way he could somehow sue the fraternity if you expelled him based on his speech, except perhaps to demand a prorated refund of dues for time he ends up not spending as a member. (In fact, the First Amendment's freedom of association means that the government cannot force the fraternity to associate with expression of a viewpoint it loathes.)

Naturally, this is an emotionally charged issue. I would only advise you to think very carefully about it, weigh all the circumstances, including all the history with this individual.

Consider also the core principles of your fraternity. Most fraternities allow expulsion for the catch-all "conduct unbecoming a member of the fraternity." I have generally considered this to include "conduct violative of the cardinal principles of the fraternity," and I consider those to be much more important than whatever some random person on the street might find offensive. Applying the ideas tied up in such principles is often very hard to do in an emotionally charged situation. While you shouldn't state categorically, "well, this is against principle blah, so you're out," you might find that your core principles can guide you when you have a question that seems like it could go either way.

So, think slowly, think hard, and think carefully. Good luck to your chapter in handling this.

Optimist Prime · #25 09-22-2002, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by starang21
make him buy a new flag. but don't kick him out. he's excercising his first amendment. isn't that the same thing that the frats down at Auburn were doing when they put on blackface? if that's free speech, then this is too.

Good call.

33girl · #26 09-22-2002, 10:20 PM

If this was the first he ever did something like this, I would say simply make him replaced the flag if he damaged it, same as you would make him replace the house microwave if he broke it. But this sounds like the straw that broke the camel's back - and no, the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer defense (i.e. I'm not from here, I don't know how to act) will not cut it. Definitely get rid of him.

Rudey · #27 09-22-2002, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by starang21
make him buy a new flag. but don't kick him out. he's excercising his first amendment. isn't that the same thing that the frats down at Auburn were doing when they put on blackface? if that's free speech, then this is too.

What you and others seem to think is that just because someone has the privilege to free speech that others should sit there and take it. It might be free speech but his brothers have the right to judge him based on it, the fraternity's national office has a right to evaluate whether the chapter represents their ideals, and potential members have the option of choosing whether to join...all parties exercising their freedoms with a reaction to the original expression.

-Rudey

PsychTau · #28 09-22-2002, 11:45 PM

damasa,

Well, your additional post sheds more light on the subject! Sounds like this guy has some long standing anger control problems. You have his history of behavior also to consider when thinking of expulsion. If he's been suspended before, then you could consider suspending him (or putting him on probation) for a longer time period. You may also want to find out if you can require counseling as part of his suspension/probation. Chances are, with his history, he will mess up while on probation and then you can expel him. That's one option.

The values/principles ideas that others have said are very good points. Take those into consideration also. Don't decide at one meeting (whoever it is that meets to discuss this). Discuss, adjourn, and then vote/decide later. Give everyone a chance to think about all the arguments presented.

One other question to consider. . . How much of a liability is he?

Good Luck. This is one of those experiences that you'll learn from.

Peaches-n-Cream · #29 09-23-2002, 12:01 AM

This isn't a First Ammendment issue. It's an issue of character or lack thereof in his case. He sounds like a magnet for trouble and problems for your fraternity. I think that your standards board or disciplinary committee ought to address this problem brother and put him on probation or whatever type of punishment you have. I'm sorry that you are going through this difficulty in your fraternity. It's amazing how one person's bad conduct can affect an entire group. Good luck.

starang21 · #30 09-23-2002, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudey

What you and others seem to think is that just because someone has the privilege to free speech that others should sit there and take it. It might be free speech but his brothers have the right to judge him based on it, the fraternity's national office has a right to evaluate whether the chapter represents their ideals, and potential members have the option of choosing whether to join...all parties exercising their freedoms with a reaction to the original expression.

-Rudey

so i guess everyone in here thinks it was ok for those frats to get kicked off the campus, then huh? i'm pretty sure in the fraternity by laws, it says nothing about disagreeing with other brothers. or being anti-american. if he's in violation of the frat laws, he should be kicked out. you're right, it was the other brothers freedom of speech to whoop his ass. i don't think he should be kicked out. if one of my frat brothers felt like that, cool. my day isn't messed up anymore.