Interesting article

[KABillyMac]

B.S.

[UT Martin KA]

Originally Posted by Deltadarling

I really hate to break this to you...since you are a KA you are going to be narrow minded and think that your frat is the shit, and maybe your chapter unlike the hundreds around the US are not racist ingnorant hill billy's just MAYBE your chapter is GREAT...but NOT ALL ARE.

DeltaDarling:

As a member of Kappa Alpha Order, I would like to speak privately with you on this matter. I will get you in touch with the people you need to report this horrible event to. I hate that our precious order has been permanently disgraced by the actions of a few individuals who obviously were asleep during inanition or were just not paying attention to the morals that we, as knights of our Order, hold so dear to our hearts (or at least should). I hope that you will someday see that 95% of KAs are not nearly as narrow minded as these at Steven F. Austin. I pray that you contact me so that this matter can be resolved and the individuals who so blatantly disgrace our precious letters might be brought to justice.

[SWTXBelle]

One of the main problems in dealing with a discussion of the War Between the States (I don't use the term "Civil War" because the CSA never sought to take over the USA but instead seceded) is that the history books are written by the victors. The tree remembers what the ax forgot. As a former college professor, I find it helpful to simply deliver a little pop quiz to establish certain facts.

1. In 1860, the states of the future C.S.A. paid 87% of all tariffs in the U.S.A.
- True
- False

2. No slaves came to the U.S.A. on ships flying the flag of the C.S.A., but fortunes were made by the citizens of the U.S.A. who brought thousands of captured Africans to this country.
-True
-False

3. In the 4th Lincoln-Doublas debate on September 18th, 1858, (less than 3 yrs. before the War) Lincoln stated "I will say, then, that I am not nor have ever been in favor bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races - that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and Iwill say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race. "
-True
-False

4. Slavery continued to be legal in four states of the U.S.A. throughout the War.
-True
-False

5. The Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves ONLY in the states of the C.S.A. not under U.S.A. control.
-True
-False

6. As a condition of joining the U.S.A. at the time of the American Revolution, several states, including Massachusetts and Virginia, specifically retained the right of secession.
-True
-False

7. Upon inheriting his father-in-laws property, Robert E. Lee immediately began freeing his slaves, and owned no slaves at the time of Emacipation Proclamation.
-True
-False

8. Before the WBTS, the South was one of the richest areas of the U.S.A.
-True
-False

9. In his 1860 inaugural address, Lincoln said that he had no intention to interfere with slavery because he had no legal right to do so.
-True
-False

10. Some Union generals didn't free their slaves until the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868.
-True
-False

11. Ulysses Grant was the last U.S. president to own slaves.
-True
-False

12. In a letter to Elihu Washburne written during the War, Grant wrote "I never was an Abolitionist, not even what could be called anti slavery." To his father on May 6, 1861, Grant wrote "A few decisive victories in some of the southern ports will send the secession army howling and . . . negroes will depreciate so rapidly in value that no body will want to own them . . . the nigger will never disturb this country again."
-True
-False

13. The U.S.A. is the only country in the Western Hemisphere that did not peacefully abolish slavery.
-True
-False

14. In 1856, Robert E. Lee made this statement "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil."
-True
-False

15. In the 20th century, the KKK used both the battle flag of the C.S.A. and the Stars and Stripes of the U.S.A. in their marches.
-True
-False

16. After the War, many northern cities passes laws forbidding freed slaves from residing there.
-True
-False

I could go on - but my point is this. If you want to discuss the WBTS, you must deal with all of the complexities and political truths involved - not just those presented as justification for the War from the U.S.A. I will not tell you the answers - I've found it far better for those with no deep knowledge of the facts of TWBS to do their own research, and thus avoid any appearance of bias. The above statements are either true or false, and a quick internet search will lead you to the authoritative sources to establish the correct answer.
Having said that, there is no excuse for any GLO in indulge in any behavior which is racist, sexist, or in any way demeaning to anyone. I would hope that KA would immediately punish any and all members who in any way cause dishonour to themselves or the South.

[The Icon]

Now that, Freethinker, is some concrete evidence to support an arguement.

See, KABillyMac, all it takes is some research.

[KABillyMac]

Here is the thing. You have hundreds of active chapters, and you expect all of them to be on their best behavior at all times. Since you and Icon dont have the good sense that God gave a goose, then I wouldnt expect you to realize this. You take any one GLO in this nation and show me some CONCRETE evidence that atleast on of their chapters hasnt been in trouble before, and I will stand corrected. No sense in wasting your pathetic lives trying to research that, cause your not going to find it.

That article about R.E.L is absolute horseshit. You need to do your R.E.L research before you come here posting that kind of absurdity.

I will be damned if I will explain to you one single damn thing to you about my Order or any of its chapters. Its none of your damn buisness.

Crawl back under the rock.

[freethinker]

M'friend, I think I have done my research. Want me to post more?

[KABillyMac]

What your best bet is to find something more meaningful to do with your life. For example, during my freetime I like to do this thing called "dating". Yes yes, I know its all new to you but please bear with me. You see, what you do is, find yourself a young lady that you are interested in, ask her out, and have yourself a good time. Its really not all that hard. There are other hobbies out there too, believe it or not. Just try any one of these things and I am sure that the KA forum will be but a memory to you.

[The Icon]

Originally posted by KABillyMac
What your best bet is to find something more meaningful to do with your life. For example, during my freetime I like to do this thing called "dating". Yes yes, I know its all new to you but please bear with me. You see, what you do is, find yourself a young lady that you are interested in, ask her out, and have yourself a good time. Its really not all that hard. There are other hobbies out there too, believe it or not. Just try any one of these things and I am sure that the KA forum will be but a memory to you.

Come on KABillyMac, you make it sound like you've done all this dating without the use of date rape drugs or cruising the family reunions. Now I know all where all this "Southern Tradition" is going...

[freethinker]

So since I've completely overloaded your feeble intellect by providing ample factual proof (with references, no less) of stupid things KA does whilst holding up "traditional Southern values," you see the need to imply that I'm either

1) Gay.

or

2) Have never been on a date.

Excellent debating skills. You're a credit to your order, which in light of the evidence really isn't saying all that much.

Besides, you're still here. What's the matter, having a slow week?

[Dionysus]

Freethinker,

Please go to the Greek Life or Chit Chat forum. There are more people you can argue with and I am sure your questions will be answered. And, don't worry these guys will follow you there.

[KABillyMac]

Like Ive already said, I can use my debating skills in a hell of alot more constructive way than sitting here debating with two narrow minded morons that have nothing better to do with their time than sit at the computer and dig up articles regarding KA. I dont think you get the point that I dont have to answer to you or anyone about the affairs of the Order. So sling shit all you want, it wont help a damn bit. If I felt I was obligated to have to answer to either one of you I swear I would just assume knaw my own leg off.

Again, I ask you. Give me one social GLO that hasnt had one of their chapters get into trouble and here before God and everybody I will apologize to you. I realize this is a bold statement but I wont have to worry about doing its all gravy.

I think your beef with KA more than likely stems from one of two things. 1) you rushed and were denied a bid. or 2) you were balled for some reason. Now I'm willing to bet that not only are the two of you one in the same person, but that also one of these reasons apply to you. I have directed my comments to the two of you (plural) because quite frankly, this is my first dealing with a person with split personalities. Its a new ballgame for me. Wait, it just accured to me that the two of you could be some kind of dorm buddies, or maybe your on the same team in dungeons and dragons, or magic, or whatever it is that you play. Whatever the case, the fact remains. Something with KA must have had some sort of personal affect on you or you wouldnt be here.

Oh yeah, by the way. The reason I am still here is because this is our forum.

One more thing, i think you might have a slight problem with your sexuality. You automatically assumed that my comment on your lack of dating was a refrence to you being a homosexual, which, in no way was it. Maybe you should have that checked out.

[The Icon]

Sorry, dude. I'm The Icon. One guy. Singular.

Don't play dungeons and dragons. Don't play magic. Don't live in a dorm. Finished with school. I was a Greek though. However, KA was the frat for the really really redneck guys. Social misfits if you will.

I'm just a normal guy poking the monkey at the zoo.

By the way, homosexuality isn't a disease, so freethinker getting it "checked out" will do him no good.

[KABillyMac]

His mental bout with what his sexual preference is. You dont read to well do you?

The fact that KA on your campus had what you viewed as "rednecks" is just another example of the sterotypical ideas that you have spewed all over this forum. Sounds like an outsiders view, did you rush KA? Did you take the time to get to know all the brothers?

Poking the monkey at the zoo. Thats quite a fitting analogy. I keep having this reoccuring vision of a little snot nosed boy, throwing rocks at a caged animal, only to have his mother walk over and snatch him away while he is kicking and screaming and crying and throwing a tempertantrum that makes not only the monkey wanna go crazy on him, but the lions, tigers, and bears too. Oh my.

[The Icon]

Originally posted by KABillyMac
His mental bout with what his sexual preference is. You dont read to well do you?

The fact that KA on your campus had what you viewed as "rednecks" is just another example of the sterotypical ideas that you have spewed all over this forum. Sounds like an outsiders view, did you rush KA? Did you take the time to get to know all the brothers?

See, again witht he assumptions. If Greel life at your school is anything like it is at mine, we have socials, parties, mixers, Greek Week, and any other number of events that involve the different organizations coming together.

And guess what, KA are a bunch a redneck, poor white trash, asses.

Yours may be different, however, Sigma Nu, Sigma Chi, Sigma Phi Epsilon, Tau Kappa Alpha, Sigma Alpha Epsilon, Phi Mu, Zeta Tau Delta, Kappa Delta, and Delta Tau Delta ALL steer clear of the Kappa Alphas here.

And I think you know why.

[dzrose93]

This whole thread has gotten entirely out of hand.

KABillyMac's point is that EVERY Greek organization has SOME bad chapters that cause problems and embarrassment to the entire Greek system. Nobody is perfect, and I don't see why some people in this forum have suddenly started bashing Kappa Alpha Order. You would think by reading some of these posts that they are the ONLY fraternal organization in the world that's had problems.

Kappa Alpha men went through Rush and picked the organization whose members made them feel the most comfortable -- the same as any other rushee does. They are no different than any other fraternity member in that regard, and it is an insult to them that people stereotype them as racist and ignorant on a daily basis. The VAST majority of KA's are decent, upstanding men and everyone would do well to remember that.

You simply can't pigeonhole an entire organization as being racist just because of the ignorant actions of a few members, which is why the articles that freethinker posted carry no weight with me at all. From personal experience, I know that the media loves to blow things out of proportion and I take no stock in most articles they publish about Greeks, anyway. But, even if those articles were 100% accurate, I still wouldn't judge the entire KA Order based on the idiocy of a few members.

The main thing that makes KA a target these days for so many unenlightened people is the fact that Robert E. Lee, a famous Confederate general, is a person who the fraternity continues to salute as being a great help to the founding of the organization. If some people had their way, KA would be forced to bury their history in the sand in order to be 110% "politically correct" and not offend anyone.

The truth is, it would be very wrong of KA to ignore the influence of Lee on the Order. Not only would it be unfair to Lee's memory to not inform future generations of KA's about the impact he had on the Order, but it would be a gross misrepresentation of the fraternity's history to leave him out.

The fraternity was founded during a controversial period in our nation's history and, by chance, it was assisted in its start-up by someone who was on the losing end of a civil war. The gentlemen of KA respect the history of their GLO, and they are proud of it -- as they should be! After all, there is absolutely nothing wrong with showing pride in your organization.

You can't wipe out history, people, and it's dead wrong to criticize and negatively stereotype an extremely large group of men simply because their organization was created during a time of civil unrest, and because some of its members in more recent history have acted in a manner unbefitting their Order. I guarantee you that the Southern gentlemen of KA are just as upset as you are (probably more so) about those idiots who brought embarrassment to their organization.

One final thing before I close: Icon, I don't know what group of which you are a member. However, I'd be very willing to bet that not all of your organization's chapter members have halos above their heads. People living in glass houses shouldn't cast stones. So please stop the KA bashing. As Greeks, we should be working together to make things better in our communities -- not tearing each other down by perpetuating stereotypes. If the KA chapter at your alma mater isn't the best in the area, that's fine. But please don't paint the entire KA Order with the same brush you use for the local chapter at your school.