Knights in Shining Armor ...

[justamom]

Girls are no different than guys in many ways. If it's too easy, then the value of the conquest is questioned. It is a matter of conquest because it reflects on the individual doing the persuing.
If there is a "hot" girl and YOU get her to go out with you, it gives you a sort of status amongst your friends. You go out with a mouse and your friends say "Oh, so and so is a really nice person." (yawn)

I don't know why the sexes chase after peple that initially treat them like 3 day old fish, but it just seems like a lot of them do.

"Hard to get" is a lure and it works both ways.
It has been said over and over-when you stop looking, that's when love finds you.

Maybe we should ask how many girls have been attracted to jerks! I bet we all have at one time or another. I'm not saying to be a jerk, I don't think that would be possible for you, but maybe a tad more aloof?

In the bar-That happened to me(NOT AS EXTREME) and a guy did help me out but it went a bit differently-
I spotted this guy watching the situation, I gave him a desperate look. He MOUTHED "HELP?" I slightly nodded my head. He came over and said something like, Hey, I've been looking all over for you, put his arm around my shoulder-extended his hand to the jerk and introduced himself then said to me lets get a drink.
SMOOOOTH and no physical conflict. There ARE ways. We got to know each other, went out a couple of times but no click for either of us. We remained friends. Oooops there's that horrid word, "friends". Still, at least the initial attraction had a chance.

UM girl is right-Its all b/c of the "Waffle House" (as my sorority called it) system. Most of the time, we want our friends to help us out of the jam, but there are rare times when we dont want (Sometimes are friends think they know what we do and dont like too )

[tridelta4ever]

Opt-Prime...I am so sorry that happened to you. I know that if some freaky "happy crotch" was doing that to me and someone intervened, I would eternally grateful. You totally did the right thing! It sounds like that girl was a game player, or just immature and without any sense of gratitude. The scary thing is that guys who like to dry up random people usually don't stop there, so you probably saved her from an even worse situation.

I can understand why you'd think Chivalry is dead - there are definitely a lot of losers out there who make it hard to keep believing. However, as you can see from just this message board, I think there are lots of women who not only appreciate but would date a man who does the kind of things you do.

[ErikaXO]

Billy trust me....you do not want the kind of girl who doesn't appreciate a gentleman. I know you aren't looking for a wife yet but you don't need to waste your time with girls who aren't worthy of you. Remember, guys think they have the "player" market cornered but some of the sneakiest, most rotten, heartless players I have ever known were female. Unfortunately I was once one of them.....UNTIL I met my Knight In Shining Armor who totally reformed me with his sweetness and honesty. (and his great butt, but MOSTLY the sweetness and honesty!!!!)

[James]

Justamom, that guy was pretty cool. That is the way I would and have interfered before. But I only interfere if specifically asked, I don't believe in saving people from themselves.

I have been the victim of that Waffle thing you guys describe also, sucks to have a girl come onto you strongly and then her Sisters come over and insist she has to go home, even if she says she'll ride hom with you.

Would have blacklisted that sorority if they weren't so good looking.

[ErikaXO]

By the way I just read James' "strong message." I have to respond. If Billy is looking for someone to treat him right and care about him, TRUST me he needs to follow all of our advice. If he is just looking to get laid, there are ways. The easiest is to just pay for it. The next easiest is to hang out at the 18+ bars and target the younger girls who go in there looking to get some....they ARE out there. They aren't usually Miss America, but when the lights are out it all feels the same anyway, right?

A lot of guys who are looking to get sex and lots of it overlook something very important. Although there are a lot of sluts out there, most of the girls you'd really want to be with aren't. But we do not live in a society of prudes anymore either. The best way to have tons of mind-blowing sex is to get involved with a girl.....ONE girl. You get a girl into a monogamous relationship with one guy she genuinely likes, cares about, and lusts for, and her inner wildcat will emerge. She'll be jumping into that cramped frat house loft with you any time you want. And she'll be into trying a lot of things that the beer goggle one night stand girl won't. I for one am an extremely sexual person, it is just a part of who I am. But I have never been promiscuous. If I was hanging out with a guy and I could tell it wasn't going anywhere, I'd mess around to a point and have some fun but I did NOT sleep with them, no matter how much they begged. Then I'd move on to someone else I could really indulge my desires with. I was pretty open about it too, so I didn't get a reputation as a tease, I was thought of as a nice girl who was holding a very special prize for the best guy. Obviously this meant that I was in relationships a lot, but not all the time. Sometimes I just went free and partied with my girls, and didn't worry about the guys. But human nature would eventually get me and I'd get involved again.

PLEASE don't change, Billy. You will be so uncomfortable trying to be something you're not, and if you are patient you will see that a good match is worth the wait. (At my school we actually had an underground female communications network and we all knew who the big players were. They got a lot at first, but soon they were blackballed by all of the sorority girls with the exception of a few notorious sluts, and they were hurting!!!! When you're 22 or 23 and you have to start dating 17 year-olds, times are tough!)

[James]

Didn't we have this conversation before when we talked about being "ethically" nice or nice in a "that guy" way.

It seems that you ladies have been inadvertantly reinforcing a "that guy" pattern on the proverbial Billy. I say proverbial because we are now kind of talking about Billy as a symbol because we don't know him well enough as a person to generalize his behavior.

So yes he should stay a gentleman, but he isn't necessarily going to meet that awesome girl unless his flirting and dating skills get better. And since you are not suggesting any changes in his behavior at all, you are reinforcing a losing pattern. There are a lot of really nice quality women out there, but you have to be able to talk to them in such a way that they know you are a viable dating prospect.

One of my favorite definitions of insanity is : To do the same thing over and over again but expect a different outcome.

Also, I am not quite sure why so many women believe that its mutully exclusive to be both smooth and a gentleman. Is there some type of inverse relationship between social skills and sincerity, or kindness? So only people that fumble and less skilled are sincere?

Now there are players in the sense that they are really out for one thing. But I don't many of them that actually hide that fact. They don't usually make promises.

Also, I have met people that have a rep as being players because they have dated a lot. The truth was that they dated a lot because they had the looks and social skills so could, but because they were looking for someone special tended not to stay in long term relationships with girls they knew it wasn't going to work out with.

I am not sure what girls find objectionable about that, They date to get to know the girl, and when they realize it isn't going to work, they move in. Sounds pretty healthy to me.

So maybe I haven't been really clear on the point i have been trying to make: You can be a gentleman and still be successful in meeting women. But if one side is missing in that equation you have a problem.

And in this case that one side seems to be msissing. Because you girls are right there area LOT of girls out there, not even a minority, that would love to date a gentleman. So the question is why is Billy not meeting them! So unless you address that part of it he is just going to remain a lonely "nice" guy.

[PKTSU01]

Billy...bro...don't sweat this. There seem to be a few things ya gotta understand about how people operate.

Women...don't try to understand them, because you'll NEVER be able to. Trying to find a woman who consistently acts in a logical manner is like finding a needle in a haystack. i'm sure there are some, but i haven't met many.

ladies in the early college to young 20's range are well...to say the least, often poor in judgement, and sometimes drama queens. Think about it. Ya even seen an 18 year old with the judgement and smarts of a 30 year old woman? No, because she hasn't experienced the jerks enough to know how to truly differentiate. If a girl would have a nice guy such as yourself, she'd have nothing to talk to her friends about, except how nice of a guy you are. How boring is that?! You'd have a great rep, and her friends might be jealous, but there is no excitement in it! Which is sad but hey, we young'uns need our excitement.

It's all a game. See, you were being nice, and a bit shocked when her friend pulled her away. I would have probably straight out called her a bitch on the spot, or at least gave her friend some shit. you do her a favor and she doesn't even so much as give ya thanks? F*(k no. That's not cool. If ya would have called her on her mistake, she may have been shocked, and you would have been the guy she was thinking about all night, cause you actually chose to spend even a SECOND thinking about her in terms of a person, not as a piece of ass you wanted that night.

I know I'll get an amen from the older, more experienced people on GC when I say that the older you get, the better you get at seeing through shit. See, when a girl is an 18 year old, and a guy is 18, they are, well, stupid. Not speaking of intelligence, but stupid in the way of knowing how the whole relationship/hooking up thing works. I can say this from experience. There were things I'd do as a freshman in college I would in NO WAY do now when approaching women in any type of social scene, be it a bar or whatever. There are also things i wish I knew then that I know now. Ya know, far out there, ingenious things like...

Hold the door open for her, its OK to.
Its ok to actually RESPECT her and her body on the first date, second, and beyond.
Its OK to be an asshole if shes being a bitch, you aren't any less of a gentleman, you're just dealing with someone who wasn't much of a lady. Just as you did that night at the party.

I could ramble on even more here but I won't. ya just gotta realize that the girl who comes off as being unappreciative and of poor character probably is, and a girl who was smart and intuitive enough to thank you for your help would have been worth your time. her ignorance, your right move. Your chivalry, her loss. Keep the knight in shining armor thing going cause trust me. Once you have a lady who understands who you are, she'll understand your capability to give her the world, whereas the idiot in the bar could only probably ever give her one evening. As corny as it sounds, stay a nice guy, just be forward, and asshole enough to speak up when you don't like the situation. Ever notice why the assholes get the girl? its not cause they pretend they are nice, its cause they are ballsy enough to approach the girl. She WANTS you, and SETTLES for him cause thats the best she thinks she can do. And if she DOES want the asshole? Well, ya really want someone that dumb?

Stay your course man, dont change to fit the mold of the perceptions of individuals who are clueless anyway.

[ErikaXO]

James and PKTSU both make viable points. James, I apologize for reading the wrong message into what you were saying. You hit it on the head----a guy CAN and should be both a gentleman and smooth.....smooth in that you can get her attention, make her laugh. Making her laugh is sooooo important. If you are funny (but not in a cheesy way) it goes a long way.

And PK is so right about age/experience/judgment. I know my judgment was not where it is now when I was 19!!! I sure didn't mean to imply that this chickie never got played, because I did. Fortunately for me I had the intelligence to learn my lesson the first time, and that was kind of when I became the player just out of self defense. But even when I was interested in someone, if he seemed like he was trying to play me, I just walked away and hooked up with someone else before he even knew I was gone. Now of course I am the magical age he mentioned (almost) and I can see things a lot clearer. But you're supposed to make those dumb mistakes when you are 18! So don't let it worry you too much. You learn so much from all these experiences, the most important being what YOU want. Here is my advice. Don't look so available. Be a little mysterious. Be nice and gentlemanly, but then walk away. If she is interested she will find a way of getting back by your side. Hang with your friends, go to as many social events as possible, and don't be afraid to use the greek "network" in that if someone tries to hook you up, give it a shot.

You will do fine. I promise you, a year from now you will be amazed you ever had this complaint.....and you might have some psycho ex driving you nuts!!!!

[justamom]

PKTSU01-I may get shot for saying this, but were you a woman in your former life? You have nailed it. Yes,there will always be exceptions, but for the most part women don't understand themselves much less what they want in a relationship till later down the road. Some areas they are brilliant in, but relationships...well your post says it all.

James' point about patterns and repeating mistakes is true too.
If we al dig into our memories, I'm sure we will see where patterns existed and until we broke the pattern, nothing changed.

ErikaXO wrote- Here is my advice. Don't look so available. Be a little mysterious. Be nice and gentlemanly, but then walk away. If she is interested she will find a way of getting back by your side. Hang with your friends, go to as many social events as possible, and don't be afraid to use the greek "network" in that if someone tries to hook you up, give it a shot. Great Stuff

BILLY, you know there could be some girls really interested, but you don't SEE them. Have you ever thought about the type of girl you find yourself attracted to? Is there a possible pattern there? I'm a rather tall woman 5 ' 8/2 and there were only so many guys who felt comfortable with that...it limited the field so to say. I would have been silly to chase after insecure men under 5'7. Now a CONFIDANT man had no problems!

JUST A RANDOM THOUGHT- Why is it when we are young, really tall guys always ended up with really short girls??? We taller girls ways thought that was so unfair. We decided it was a way for men/boys to feel extra masculine.

[Optimist Prime]

Okay let me clarify something. I can hook up when I want to. The thing is, the girls I hook up with tend to be not girlfriend material. They only want hook ups. I didn't really want to hook up with girl in orginal post just some recognition that the other guy was the jerk and not me. As far as finding a girl worthy of me, who knows. Oh well, nevermind.

[KABillyMac]

Billy, your chivilary is not at question here, but I think that in this situation your approach may lack something to be desired. Never make yourself as available as what I have gathered from your original post as you did. That made no sense. Anyway, when you meet a girl at a party like that, dont assume because you have had a good conversation with her that it means she is not going to go out on the dance floor and "get jiggy wit it" (yes gc, i just said get jiggy wit it) with another tom, dick, or harry. If your attracted to someone like that upon a intiatial conversation just let it pan out and see what happens. Dont read into her talking t someone else the first night. It is afterall, the first night.

Good luck.

Chivilary will never die.

[DGPhoney]

James,
I totally disagree with you on this one, I know you Seem to think that you are inside every lady's head at all times, and seem to have a A+ in how the average female thinks. Well unfortunaletly on this one, I truely disagree with you. I see nothing wrong with telling Op. Prime that he is doing nothing wrong and shouldn't change. Why should he change , when he is who he is. He shouldnt change his style of macking because A. It doesn't work for you other fellas or B. That it makes him look like a sap, or whatever, someone said earlier . (Not calling you a Sap Op)
Chivilary is a thing of the past for some guys and not all. A lot of ladies dig the whole chivilary thing and the guy being the total gentelman and being smooth at the same time.
To sit and generalize and say every girl won't date a nice guy, I think is a wack statement. It is 2002 , people not only date each other on the "being nice " theory but tons of other reasons.
Yes, the whole nice thing is a characteristic, but I am sure "Just being nice" is not the only thing going for him.
Some of you all kill me with this, oh ladies never know what we want, and we are just too complex, and fellas please don't act like you know all 100% of the time what you want. It goes both ways.
So Billy, I say, do what you do best, like you said you can hook up when you want to , and when your looking for that lady, do what you do best , if the chivilary kinda smooth gentleman is the guy you are, then work it out and be happy and I sure " The World Won't Change for you" (like someone else said) but I am sure, you'll find the female that will appreciate you for you, and all the chivilary they can handle
Good Luck~

DGP~Honey~

[ErikaXO]

Originally posted by justamom
[
BILLY, you know there could be some girls really interested, but you don't SEE them. Have you ever thought about the type of girl you find yourself attracted to? Is there a possible pattern there? I'm a rather tall woman 5 ' 8/2 and there were only so many guys who felt comfortable with that...it limited the field so to say. I would have been silly to chase after insecure men under 5'7. Now a CONFIDANT man had no problems!

JUST A RANDOM THOUGHT- Why is it when we are young, really tall guys always ended up with really short girls??? We taller girls ways thought that was so unfair. We decided it was a way for men/boys to feel extra masculine. [/B]

I thought I was the only one who noticed the height thing!!!! Mom, I am the exact same height as you are and while it would initially get me noticed, a lot of guys shied away (and I don't think that's all that tall!) I definitely got hit on by a lot of short guys....sort of the supermodel syndrome. Ever notice how they are always with these little guys? And the tall guys always ended up with shorties. My Granny had a theory about that but I won't go into that here. My husband dated girls who looked just like garden trolls before I came along....nothing against petite girls, I know quite a few who are just adorable. But I did used to get annoyed at how the guys taller than me went for the five-footers, and then these guys my height or shorter chased after me....one of the most unbelievably beautiful guys I have ever laid eyes (and hands!) on was about an inch shorter than me and it bugged me that I couldn't wear heels when we went to a dressy event. His height didn't affect my attraction to him but still...

[deltaphi94]

Just a thought... which supports some of what has already been said....

In the end, women want the men who believe that chivalry is still
alive, so don't lose hope. However, in the late teens/ early 20's there is what I call a blindness to reality. There are the male friends who seem to know how to relate and show all the compassion, understaning, etc. in the world. Of course, at this point in life, these are the guys who are least likely to be seen in any type of romantic light. The guys who walk all over us are, for some reason, the ones who end up with the dates.

While we are being walked on, we EVENTUALLY learn that the guys who were there for us and treated us like we mattered at all are the type we really want to be with. It just takes a while for that to sink into our brains.

If this girl doesn't see what a wonderful thing was done for her, she's not at that point yet. Don't give up on the way you are. Changing just to find a relationship will not work. Stay true to who you are.

[ansturge]

Maybe you are looking in the wrong places.

I know lots of girls in the raleigh area that would make great girlfriends.

They are sweet, extremely caring, oh yeah and they can COOK too!!

But none of them are really into the club or bar scenes

I mean we go to them on occaision but rarely.

and if you are looking for someone in a bar maybe that shy girl sitting at the bar is perfect for you

And being shy doesnt mean she is a prude!!

But anyway You were not a jerk at the bar her friend was. Yes some people are manipulated by their friends.

So Happy Hunting

and if anyone can tell me where the nice yet ADVENTUROUS guys are -- let me know

cuz i have fished the NCSU pond dry and have found nothing worth keeping