I don't care if I offend you, Greek & PNMs- Listen Up!

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I can't look at this guy anymore. If this were the 'You laugh, you lose' thread, I would have lost 5 times already.

[victoriana]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I can't look at this guy anymore. If this were the 'You laugh, you lose' thread, I would have lost 5 times already.

Snaps to that, sister. That guy is HI-larious.

[CloseMinded]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

shirley1929ity?

I've never seen this post before or heard of Shirley, but if I had a chance to meet her I would say BRAVO!

I'M NOT SAYING GREEKS ARE MEAN, for the 2nd time. What I advocate in this post is simple. When you go into your voting process for your next recruitment, don't vote against someone because they depledged or left recruitment! I cannot think of a simpler way to phrase that! I'm not saying the GCers are going to solve this problem or are the only thing that needs to change. The root of the problem is what needs to change and that is allowing for these girls to not have a fair chance at being Greek. Rather than saying XYZ has a competitive Greek system, sisters should advocate to raise campus total, etc. so they can reach a wider pool of girls. We can't pride ourselves on rejecting PNMs, we need to pride ourselves on positively effecting young women through involvement in Greek Life.

I know Bama and Ole Miss have competitive recruitment processes. Without naming my school or organization, I will say that I go to a university with one of the most competitive Greek Life systems in the New England/Mid-Atlantic regions. I have done the whole, fill out recs, meet alumni, talk to advisors thing when I went through formal and informal recruitment (which isn't forgiving at all at my school!) and only received a bid after extremely unusual circumstances. I just think that WE need to keep an open mind as much as we encourage PNMs to do so.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

I've never seen this post before or heard of Shirley, but if I had a chance to meet her I would say BRAVO!

I'M NOT SAYING GREEKS ARE MEAN, for the 2nd time. What I advocate in this post is simple. When you go into your voting process for your next recruitment, don't vote against someone because they depledged or left recruitment! I cannot think of a simpler way to phrase that! I'm not saying the GCers are going to solve this problem or are the only thing that needs to change. The root of the problem is what needs to change and that is allowing for these girls to not have a fair chance at being Greek. Rather than saying XYZ has a competitive Greek system, sisters should advocate to raise campus total, etc. so they can reach a wider pool of girls. We can't pride ourselves on rejecting PNMs, we need to pride ourselves on positively effecting young women through involvement in Greek Life.

I know Bama and Ole Miss have competitive recruitment processes. Without naming my school or organization, I will say that I go to a university with one of the most competitive Greek Life systems in the New England/Mid-Atlantic regions. I have done the whole, fill out recs, meet alumni, talk to advisors thing when I went through formal and informal recruitment (which isn't forgiving at all at my school!) and only received a bid after extremely unusual circumstances. I just think that WE need to keep an open mind as much as we encourage PNMs to do so.

But of course since it happened to you, it can happen to anyone. No.

I'm not about to tell my sisters at JMU or Delaware how to select NMs...just as I would laugh hard in their faces if they told me how to select NMs at my school. Not only that, maybe Rita Rushee at JMU is someone I find charming as pie, but the sisters at JMU would hate her guts. Just because we're all sisters doesn't make us all the same personality type.

And as far as the red and the bolded...this has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on GC. Are you advocating chapters of 500, 600, 700 at schools like Alabama? Not that they couldn't fill them, I'm sure. We have chapters that size at SEC schools and the girls, advisors and rushees are all unhappy with them. You reach a point of diminishing returns.

Oh, and NE/Mid-Atlantic IS NOT SEC schools. It's just not. So quit pretending that Syracuse, Penn State, Penn, Lehigh, (help me out here peeps) is the same thing. Yes those schools have tough rushes, but they are tough for different reasons than rush at SEC schools are.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

I've never seen this post before or heard of Shirley, but if I had a chance to meet her I would say BRAVO!

I'M NOT SAYING GREEKS ARE MEAN, for the 2nd time. What I advocate in this post is simple. When you go into your voting process for your next recruitment, don't vote against someone because they depledged or left recruitment! I cannot think of a simpler way to phrase that! I'm not saying the GCers are going to solve this problem or are the only thing that needs to change. The root of the problem is what needs to change and that is allowing for these girls to not have a fair chance at being Greek. Rather than saying XYZ has a competitive Greek system, sisters should advocate to raise campus total, etc. so they can reach a wider pool of girls. We can't pride ourselves on rejecting PNMs, we need to pride ourselves on positively effecting young women through involvement in Greek Life.

I know Bama and Ole Miss have competitive recruitment processes. Without naming my school or organization, I will say that I go to a university with one of the most competitive Greek Life systems in the New England/Mid-Atlantic regions. I have done the whole, fill out recs, meet alumni, talk to advisors thing when I went through formal and informal recruitment (which isn't forgiving at all at my school!) and only received a bid after extremely unusual circumstances. I just think that WE need to keep an open mind as much as we encourage PNMs to do so.

First, I think you're taking your own personal experience and projecting onto a much wider group than what actually exists. You're clearly upset about your own situation. You're also making very little sense. I recommend that you just chill out.

Second, you really have no business coming in here and telling people how they should vote during Membership Selection. It's none of your business.

Third, has anyone ever told you you're a bit wordy?

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

Have you ever thought about how close minded you all sound on this forum? I have a message for both my fellow Greeks and for PNMs which might (probably) will offend many of you, but I think it needs to be said.


It’s almost a daily occurrence a young woman will come to this forum asking questions about standing out at recruitment and getting replies about how she should just give up on Greek Life because she screwed up and there are no second chances in life. These young women come to this forum because they are actively seeking help because they want to join an organization to meet people, make friends and have a positive experience in college. No one would seek out an organization with the mind set, “I want this experience to ruin the best year of my life for me. I want to ruin the lives of hundreds of girls in my (soon-to-be) chapter by creating a bad name for the organization”. They see the embellishments of Greek Life like lettered shirts, big/little baskets, parties, etc before they join, but what keeps them around are the real meanings behind being in a sorority; the friendships, experiences, accomplishments. Deep down, whether they realize it or not, that is what they really want when they say they want to affiliate. Why else would they put themselves through hours of recruitment parties in uncomfortable shoes making small talk with girls they have never met before with the potential of getting rejected even though they are doing all they can to fit in? They want to belong! They want a community and they want to be a part of something bigger then themselves.

I dropped out of formal recruitment my freshmen year because I was closed minded and only wanted the house that reminded me of Legally Blonde never giving the other organizations on campus a chance. Do I regret it? Yes and no. Does dropping out of recruitment/new member period hurt your chances of ever joining another chapter? Absolutely! But is that entirely the fault of the closed minded PNMs or is it also our fault? I was one of the lucky few who dropped out of recruitment and a few years later (not long before my graduation) found my home in Greek Life. For me, it was a growing up process that needed to occur before I achieved my letters. I needed to realize what Greek Life is all about before I joined. It gave me an eye opening experience from both perspectives. I would be willing to bet 90% of you joined within the first 2 years of entering college or at the first opportunity you had to join. When you have always been on one side of the story, you never understand or appreciate the other side. You will never understand the longing to be a part of the community that occurs for students who make that decision to leave recruitment/new member process. Most of you will even take your letters for granted compared to members like myself who have experienced that longing and was finally granted the opportunity to affiliate. The legacy you leave at your campus will be defined by each of your actions. Leave a legacy of being a positive influence on others. You don’t want someone else to remember you (or your organization) for being “that girl” to them who rejects and is as closed minded as you describe these PNMs.
Does this mean I condone someone going into recruitment with a closed mind? Absolutely not! What I am asking of my fellow Greeks is to rise above that standard and realize people do change. Look at yourself, are you the same person you were when you joined your organization? Probably not! Give these members a second chance because more times than not, they will be more loyal to your organization than some of the girls in your own class. Give them advice on this forum or in person if you know them. Show them what Greek Life really means. I was fortunate to have a young woman in Greek Life on my campus show me that the letters on your shirts don’t matter, the crafts in your basket won’t last forever and that the petty drama you see so often between girls or organizations will change in the blink of an eye. She helped me realize that Greek Life was about challenging yourself to reach your dreams, to help others along the way, to make a positive difference in the world and to leave your chapter in a better position than how you joined it. If each of us challenged each other to do as she did for me, not only would the Greek community be stronger and gain so many valuable PNMs but it would live up to the dreams the founders of ALL our organizations dreamed and it would break down the negative images society has of us.

What I am asking PNMs is what many have said before me; go into recruitment with an open mind. If you accept a bid and are considering dropping, think for a minute. Will this matter a year from now? Five years from now? Fifty years from now? I’m joining an organization for life. Is the color fabric for the letters going to make a difference when I’m in the nursing home telling someone the stories of my college experience? Remember when you join a chapter, you are only meeting a tiny fraction of the thousands of women who came before you, who currently are active around the world and who will come after you.

Give each other a chance because at the end of the day we all want the same thing and that’s to be happy.

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

I’m not saying Greeks are mean. I’m saying for BOTH sides to keep an open mind. These girls want to join and so many are afraid of not getting bids they reach out to us and ask for advice. What they get in return is negative replies of “PNMs never learn. There are no second chances” type attitude. Look from their perspective. They know they “messed up” or are at least facing an uphill battle in getting a bid under these circumstances and now we are being as closed minded to them as they were to the organizations originally. But if you look all over this board you see Greeks telling PNMs to keep an open mind without telling each other to do the same! It’s a double standard that needs to be stopped. We have a chance to give them the impression of Greek Life which is positive and rewarding for all parties involved and welcome them into our community or we can push them away, discourage them and tell the world we think we’re better than everyone else and don’t hold ourselves to the same standards we hold others.

I'm not saying either side is right or wrong. What I am saying is proven in the replies I have received from this. Your holding a negative attitude towards people who are trying to better the community because you think you have all of the right answers. I'm not saying every girl will fit at every (or any even) organization on their campus. I'm saying give them as much of a chance at joining your organization as you would for someone who has never been through the process before!

The title was to get people’s attention more than anything. I wasn’t offending anyone, but if no one reads the post the same attitude is going to discourage more PNMs from joining the recruitment process and those girls who are discouraged could have been your “future bridesmaids” if you gave them the chance.

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

I've never seen this post before or heard of Shirley, but if I had a chance to meet her I would say BRAVO!

I'M NOT SAYING GREEKS ARE MEAN, for the 2nd time. What I advocate in this post is simple. When you go into your voting process for your next recruitment, don't vote against someone because they depledged or left recruitment! I cannot think of a simpler way to phrase that! I'm not saying the GCers are going to solve this problem or are the only thing that needs to change. The root of the problem is what needs to change and that is allowing for these girls to not have a fair chance at being Greek. Rather than saying XYZ has a competitive Greek system, sisters should advocate to raise campus total, etc. so they can reach a wider pool of girls. We can't pride ourselves on rejecting PNMs, we need to pride ourselves on positively effecting young women through involvement in Greek Life.

I know Bama and Ole Miss have competitive recruitment processes. Without naming my school or organization, I will say that I go to a university with one of the most competitive Greek Life systems in the New England/Mid-Atlantic regions. I have done the whole, fill out recs, meet alumni, talk to advisors thing when I went through formal and informal recruitment (which isn't forgiving at all at my school!) and only received a bid after extremely unusual circumstances. I just think that WE need to keep an open mind as much as we encourage PNMs to do so.

This site is skewed towards alumnae, and for those who are advisors they don't need the advice of someone with keyboard courage and poor written communication skills. Alumnae also don't often play a part in actual membership selection as that is for the collegians, we give our input in the form of recommendations. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the site by reading a few threads and you'll know we mutually agree that membership selection is private and many of us believe alumnae should stay out of membership selection and let our collegiate sisters make autonomous decisions.

Why did you fill out recs, meet alumni, and talk to advisors, if you went through formal and informal sorority recruitment? If you're going to address us and use the royal we, at least use the correct terminology of alumnae, even alums would have been better, but still not correct when in the sorority recruitment forum.

[SWTXBelle]

I'm currently teaching "Hamlet", so all I can think of is Polonius, and that "brevity is the soul of wit".

[shirley1929]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

shirley1929ity?

Um no...I can actually put together a coherent thought and have been around for almost 3 years.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by shirley1929

Um no...I can actually put together a coherent thought and have been around for almost 3 years.

Yes but that has never stopped people from creating sockpuppets.

Even if you were CloseMinded, no one expects you to admit to it. That would miss the point behind a sockpuppet.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

tl, dr.

[AlphaFrog]

I was all ready to break out the popcorn when I opened this thread. Turns out, it's not even worth a stinkin pretzel rod.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

OMG - I am laughing so hard I'm crying. Love the fried chicken.

I tried to read the original post, but I got confused and quit. I did keep reading to where the OP claims to have gone through recruitment at a super competitive New England/Mid Atlantic school. Bless her heart.

[LAblondeGPhi]

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

It’s almost a daily occurrence a young woman will come to this forum asking questions about standing out at recruitment and getting replies about how she should just give up on Greek Life because she screwed up and there are no second chances in life.

What?? I don't agree with this at all. If a PNM comes on here and asks questions in a respectful manner, then we point her in the right direction (usually "use the search function" plus some actual advice), and give the straight-talk answer on her chances. How in the world is that different from telling a 3.5 student with a 1100 SAT (or I guess it'd be 1650 nowadays) that they're going to have an uphill battle getting into Harvard??

BTW, if she comes on here with terrible grammar and less-than-stellar attitude, then she's going to receive an appropriate reply.

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

.....Does this mean I condone someone going into recruitment with a closed mind? Absolutely not! What I am asking of my fellow Greeks is to rise above that standard and realize people do change.

Look at yourself, are you the same person you were when you joined your organization? Probably not! Give these members a second chance because more times than not, they will be more loyal to your organization than some of the girls in your own class.

1. Membership selection is private and organization-specific
2. Membership selection is usually, if not always, up to collegiate members. We alumnae keep out of it.
3. It's not a matter giving one person a second chance, it's about going through the HUNDREDS of gorgeous, over-qualified, gracious freshman and picking only a handful to invite back. It's hard. Where do you draw the line? What you're asking is for chapters to pick a qualified sophomore or junior over equally qualified freshman. That doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

I’m not saying Greeks are mean. I’m saying for BOTH sides to keep an open mind. These girls want to join and so many are afraid of not getting bids they reach out to us and ask for advice. What they get in return is negative replies of “PNMs never learn. There are no second chances” type attitude. Look from their perspective. They know they “messed up” or are at least facing an uphill battle in getting a bid under these circumstances and now we are being as closed minded to them as they were to the organizations originally. But if you look all over this board you see Greeks telling PNMs to keep an open mind without telling each other to do the same! It’s a double standard that needs to be stopped. We have a chance to give them the impression of Greek Life which is positive and rewarding for all parties involved and welcome them into our community or we can push them away, discourage them and tell the world we think we’re better than everyone else and don’t hold ourselves to the same standards we hold others.

I'm not saying either side is right or wrong. What I am saying is proven in the replies I have received from this. Your holding a negative attitude towards people who are trying to better the community because you think you have all of the right answers. I'm not saying every girl will fit at every (or any even) organization on their campus. I'm saying give them as much of a chance at joining your organization as you would for someone who has never been through the process before!

I will refer to my previous Harvard comment. Still applies here.

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

I'M NOT SAYING GREEKS ARE MEAN, for the 2nd time. What I advocate in this post is simple. When you go into your voting process for your next recruitment, don't vote against someone because they depledged or left recruitment!

Mkay, again, it's about picking a qualified sophomore or junior over a qualified freshman. That freshman will stick around for 4 years. A sophomore will only stick around for 3 years, so you have to re-recruit that spot a year early. Do you see the math at play here?

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

The root of the problem is what needs to change and that is allowing for these girls to not have a fair chance at being Greek. Rather than saying XYZ has a competitive Greek system, sisters should advocate to raise campus total, etc. so they can reach a wider pool of girls. We can't pride ourselves on rejecting PNMs, we need to pride ourselves on positively effecting young women through involvement in Greek Life.

But what are the repurcussions of raising total? On many campuses, it means that the most popular sororities become larger and larger, and the less popular sororities become smaller in relation to those larger chapters. Setting a ceiling allows the smaller chapters to COB up to the size of the larger chapters.

Besides, the quota system means that almost (with a few exceptions, including the whole Indiana system) anyone can join A sorority - it just might not be the sorority they wanted

You've posted a lot of interesting thoughts on here, but many of your suggestions will have adamant opponents. If you want to open it up to a respectful discussion, then fine. But you just came on here and told everyone that we're doing things wrong. That's pretty holier-than-thou of you, don't you think?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

Have you ever thought about how close minded you all sound on this forum? I have a message for both my fellow Greeks and for PNMs which might (probably) will offend many of you, but I think it needs to be said.


It’s almost a daily occurrence a young woman will come to this forum asking questions about standing out at recruitment and getting replies about how she should just give up on Greek Life because she screwed up and there are no second chances in life. These young women come to this forum because they are actively seeking help because they want to join an organization to meet people, make friends and have a positive experience in college. No one would seek out an organization with the mind set, “I want this experience to ruin the best year of my life for me. I want to ruin the lives of hundreds of girls in my (soon-to-be) chapter by creating a bad name for the organization”. They see the embellishments of Greek Life like lettered shirts, big/little baskets, parties, etc before they join, but what keeps them around are the real meanings behind being in a sorority; the friendships, experiences, accomplishments. Deep down, whether they realize it or not, that is what they really want when they say they want to affiliate. Why else would they put themselves through hours of recruitment parties in uncomfortable shoes making small talk with girls they have never met before with the potential of getting rejected even though they are doing all they can to fit in? They want to belong! They want a community and they want to be a part of something bigger then themselves.

I dropped out of formal recruitment my freshmen year because I was closed minded and only wanted the house that reminded me of Legally Blonde never giving the other organizations on campus a chance. Do I regret it? Yes and no. Does dropping out of recruitment/new member period hurt your chances of ever joining another chapter? Absolutely! But is that entirely the fault of the closed minded PNMs or is it also our fault? I was one of the lucky few who dropped out of recruitment and a few years later (not long before my graduation) found my home in Greek Life. For me, it was a growing up process that needed to occur before I achieved my letters. I needed to realize what Greek Life is all about before I joined. It gave me an eye opening experience from both perspectives. I would be willing to bet 90% of you joined within the first 2 years of entering college or at the first opportunity you had to join. When you have always been on one side of the story, you never understand or appreciate the other side. You will never understand the longing to be a part of the community that occurs for students who make that decision to leave recruitment/new member process. Most of you will even take your letters for granted compared to members like myself who have experienced that longing and was finally granted the opportunity to affiliate. The legacy you leave at your campus will be defined by each of your actions. Leave a legacy of being a positive influence on others. You don’t want someone else to remember you (or your organization) for being “that girl” to them who rejects and is as closed minded as you describe these PNMs.
Does this mean I condone someone going into recruitment with a closed mind? Absolutely not! What I am asking of my fellow Greeks is to rise above that standard and realize people do change. Look at yourself, are you the same person you were when you joined your organization? Probably not! Give these members a second chance because more times than not, they will be more loyal to your organization than some of the girls in your own class. Give them advice on this forum or in person if you know them. Show them what Greek Life really means. I was fortunate to have a young woman in Greek Life on my campus show me that the letters on your shirts don’t matter, the crafts in your basket won’t last forever and that the petty drama you see so often between girls or organizations will change in the blink of an eye. She helped me realize that Greek Life was about challenging yourself to reach your dreams, to help others along the way, to make a positive difference in the world and to leave your chapter in a better position than how you joined it. If each of us challenged each other to do as she did for me, not only would the Greek community be stronger and gain so many valuable PNMs but it would live up to the dreams the founders of ALL our organizations dreamed and it would break down the negative images society has of us.

What I am asking PNMs is what many have said before me; go into recruitment with an open mind. If you accept a bid and are considering dropping, think for a minute. Will this matter a year from now? Five years from now? Fifty years from now? I’m joining an organization for life. Is the color fabric for the letters going to make a difference when I’m in the nursing home telling someone the stories of my college experience? Remember when you join a chapter, you are only meeting a tiny fraction of the thousands of women who came before you, who currently are active around the world and who will come after you.

Give each other a chance because at the end of the day we all want the same thing and that’s to be happy.

Originally Posted by CloseMinded

I’m not saying Greeks are mean. I’m saying for BOTH sides to keep an open mind. These girls want to join and so many are afraid of not getting bids they reach out to us and ask for advice. What they get in return is negative replies of “PNMs never learn. There are no second chances” type attitude. Look from their perspective. They know they “messed up” or are at least facing an uphill battle in getting a bid under these circumstances and now we are being as closed minded to them as they were to the organizations originally. But if you look all over this board you see Greeks telling PNMs to keep an open mind without telling each other to do the same! It’s a double standard that needs to be stopped. We have a chance to give them the impression of Greek Life which is positive and rewarding for all parties involved and welcome them into our community or we can push them away, discourage them and tell the world we think we’re better than everyone else and don’t hold ourselves to the same standards we hold others.

I'm not saying either side is right or wrong. What I am saying is proven in the replies I have received from this. Your holding a negative attitude towards people who are trying to better the community because you think you have all of the right answers. I'm not saying every girl will fit at every (or any even) organization on their campus. I'm saying give them as much of a chance at joining your organization as you would for someone who has never been through the process before!

The title was to get people’s attention more than anything. I wasn’t offending anyone, but if no one reads the post the same attitude is going to discourage more PNMs from joining the recruitment process and those girls who are discouraged could have been your “future bridesmaids” if you gave them the chance.

[shirley1929]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yes but that has never stopped people from creating sockpuppets.

Even if you were CloseMinded, no one expects you to admit to it. That would miss the point behind a sockpuppet.

True...however, I couldn't even read the OP's posts...much less write them myself.

Maybe I'm just old, but I seriously don't get the point of sockpuppets. That's a conversation for another thread, I suppose.