Should we change the way PNMs think of Recruitment?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by 28StGreek

Well thank y'all for the discussion!

Just a thought are the opinions of "Blunt, Rational, Transparent recruitment" vs "inclusive, every PNM has an equal chance recruitment" philosophies vary depending on whether a campus' Panhellenic recruitment is considered competitive?

Does the Panhellenic community at very competitive schools feel that PNMs should know how competitive it is and that they really are being chosen from a very similar field with many PNMs having stellar resumes?

This might go in the same box as "All PNMs need recs to every house or they will be cut, but Panhellenic can't explicitly state this"?

Or is this feeling present throughout Panhellenics across the majority of campuses big or small; and its just the PC police that makes the situation misrepresented to the PNMs?

Am I making sense?

Panhellenic (the entity) does not know the membership selection procedures of the individual groups so honestly, it is in their best interests (regardless of what I said below) to NOT say "you have to have recs or you'll get cut from all chapters." They don't know what criteria those chapters are using to release women unless they're in the room when it's happening. For all they know, they're using the Animal House method.

However, there's nothing to stop THE CHAPTERS from putting that information on their web page.

And to the bolded, I would say yes. That's the old girl network I referred to.

On another note, I think that NPC doesn't want to make the process sound harder than it really is at schools where Greek life is struggling already.

[KSUViolet06]

We've talked about this in other threads, but PNMs fail to realize (particularly at competitive schools) that while they may very well be awesome, so is everyone else.

I think it's funny when a PNM comes here and is all "I have a 4.0." Great, you're rushing at USC though, so you won't be the only one.

Or saying "well I'm a legacy" when rushing at Bama/Ole Miss/etc. So are lots of other girls and you'll need more than that to get past first round.

[MaryPoppins]

^^^^ And the PNMs at supercompetitive schools. who drop out after second round, when their top three houses had to cut them, thinking they'll make it next year as Sophomores.

[KSUViolet06]

^^^^Not realizing that the three that she loves aren't likely the ones who take sophomores.

[MaryPoppins]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

^^^^Not realizing that the three that she loves aren't likely the ones who take sophomores.

nor are they the ones who COB once recruitment is over.

[AXOmom]

I have never felt like it was my place (not having ever been through a recruitment) to bring this topic up - but I'm glad that you did 28stgreek because I had resolved that if it ever did come up - I wanted to share daughter's experience with this subject since she saw the honest approach and the "rainbows and ponies" approach used in her two recruitments and she knows which one worked better in the long run. Warning: this is long and windy.

As I mentioned in her recruitment story, daughter was a sophomore with grade issues (not to mention a few other issues) when she went into recruitment at her first school. She had spent enough time reading on GC to know she might have a problem on her hands.

After reading on here at least 1,747, 657 times that your best bet if you had specific questions about recruitment at your school was to call your Greek life office and ask, she did just that. The person in charge of Greek life at WSU in 2008 (want this to be mentioned because whoever she was - kudos to her) was polite but honest in telling her that she was facing an uphill battle, the odds were not in her favor, she would probably face stiff cuts and if that was going to devastate her she might want to get her grades up first and go through next year or think about informal although she couldn't say if that would be happening. In other words - the sororities make the decisions and as it stands they have better options than you (her wording was much nicer, of course).

At the time, daughter thought the woman was one of many big meanie witches who was conspiring to keep her out of a sorority. Two weeks later, after she had dropped out of recruitment, she had a different opinion. Getting cut by chpaters she loved and where she had friends, hurt, but having someone honestly prepare her for what could happen and why helped her accept it and move on fairly quickly. Now, she is grateful to that woman. Her honesty was a kindness - it saved daughter a world of hurt.

Fast forward to the next recruitment (current school). Daughter understood it was up to sororities -not her. Roomate, who was also going through recruitment, was a bright eyed freshman who had drunk the "recruitment isn't very competitive here and everyone finds a chapter they love" kool-aide. She couldn't understand why daughter was stressed - after all - they were guaranteed bids (as she understood it) and at orientation they told them it was mutual selection and you'd find a home you loved. What could possibly go wrong?

Next day, roommate was upset to find out the chapter she absolutely loved had cut her. The next day, same thing. Then, she got her second choice on bid day (she liked the chapter - it just wasn't her first choice).

It took her a while to get past it and I think a lot of that had to do with drinking that kool-aide. She loves her chapter now - couldn't be happier, and I'm fairly certain she is one who now couldn't see herself anywhere else, but I believe if Greek life had been a little blunter in explaining things at that orientation - she would have been happier quicker.

[DubaiSis]

It's competitive if you're the one getting cut. If the school uses RFM, then it's competitive. Period. We've discussed here quite a bit that competitive generally means that you will likely find A home (presuming you have all the required credentials for your campus) but you may not find THE home.

And it IS a mutual selection process if you go all the way through rush as the superstar rushee who doesn't get cut by any chapters. Then the rushee gets to participate in the deciding. It does happen, even at the mega schools, just not very often, like I'd bet it goes that way for a handful of girls per school per year. Out of 1000+. If a girl can do SOME deciding, then that's great, but she shouldn't expect (although they do every year!) to get her top list for every round without having to go to any ranked chapters through the process.

KUDOS to the Greek adviser AXOMom mentioned. More of that and less of unicorns pooping rainbows would be extremely helpful to a lot of girls.

[AOII Angel]

I think people are misunderstanding the process. The "chapters" don't get to make the decisions first. The lists of chapters and PNMs are matched together every day. Top performing chapters and top performing PNMs get what they want first which leaves both weaker performing chapters and PNMs to take what is left over on their lists that makes them think it's not mutual selection. The "chapters" as a group aren't getting any choices before the PNMs. The lists must be matched. If chapter XYZ wants the top PNMs and they don't list XYZ, there is nothing they can do about it. PNMs want to whine when they get XYZ on their list, but XYZ also whines when they get PNMs they don't want every single day. It works both ways. In the end, this is the point of RFM...to make these women think about what is in front of them instead of what they can't have (from the PNM side and the chapter side.)

[LAblondeGPhi]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

And it IS a mutual selection process if you go all the way through rush as the superstar rushee who doesn't get cut by any chapters. Then the rushee gets to participate in the deciding. It does happen, even at the mega schools, just not very often, like I'd bet it goes that way for a handful of girls per school per year. Out of 1000+. If a girl can do SOME deciding, then that's great, but she shouldn't expect (although they do every year!) to get her top list for every round without having to go to any ranked chapters through the process.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I think people are misunderstanding the process. The "chapters" don't get to make the decisions first. The lists of chapters and PNMs are matched together every day. Top performing chapters and top performing PNMs get what they want first which leaves both weaker performing chapters and PNMs to take what is left over on their lists that makes them think it's not mutual selection. The "chapters" as a group aren't getting any choices before the PNMs. The lists must be matched. If chapter XYZ wants the top PNMs and they don't list XYZ, there is nothing they can do about it. PNMs want to whine when they get XYZ on their list, but XYZ also whines when they get PNMs they don't want every single day. It works both ways. In the end, this is the point of RFM...to make these women think about what is in front of them instead of what they can't have (from the PNM side and the chapter side.)

Exactly - It IS a mutual selection process. Every chapter on a campus (except, MAYBE, for ultra-unusual superstar chapters at a few campuses) will lose PNMs they love at some point in recruitment. It might be on Bid Day instead of Round 1, but that's evidence of selection on the PNM side.

Conversely, how many PNMs truly get a bid to the chapter they ranked last every single day? I would say that's pretty unusual. The great majority of PNMs will have some say throughout their recruitment as far as which chapters they return to.

I think the reason why we have this idea that chapters are the ones deciding is only because we have a track record for how well chapters do in recruitment, and therefore we give them target numbers of women to return for each round of recruitment. The chapters know ahead of time about how many of their favorite PNMs to expect back, and will invite accordingly - but sometimes this means that a chapter is inviting back women they're fairly uncertain about for the next round. PNMs have no idea about their relative recruitable strength, so its an emotional shock when they aren't invited back to their favorite house.

Maybe it would be beneficial for NPC to create a video to be used at recruitment orientations around the country, explaining a little bit better what to expect during the process, and how the mutual selection process works. It'd ensure some consistency in what's being told PNMs year to year and from campus to campus.

[Splash]

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

Conversely, how many PNMs truly get a bid to the chapter they ranked last every single day? I would say that's pretty unusual. The great majority of PNMs will have some say throughout their recruitment as far as which chapters they return to.

Others might think differently, but I think on campuses with struggling chapters, many women rank these chapters last (try to drop) every day, and the amount of girls that get their last choice that they ranked last every day is about quota.

[TXGreekMom]

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

Exactly - It IS a mutual selection process. Every chapter on a campus (except, MAYBE, for ultra-unusual superstar chapters at a few campuses) will lose PNMs they love at some point in recruitment. It might be on Bid Day instead of Round 1, but that's evidence of selection on the PNM side.

Conversely, how many PNMs truly get a bid to the chapter they ranked last every single day? I would say that's pretty unusual. The great majority of PNMs will have some say throughout their recruitment as far as which chapters they return to.

I think the reason why we have this idea that chapters are the ones deciding is only because we have a track record for how well chapters do in recruitment, and therefore we give them target numbers of women to return for each round of recruitment. The chapters know ahead of time about how many of their favorite PNMs to expect back, and will invite accordingly - but sometimes this means that a chapter is inviting back women they're fairly uncertain about for the next round. PNMs have no idea about their relative recruitable strength, so its an emotional shock when they aren't invited back to their favorite house.

I am QFPing this for myself because it's a wonderful point. My rec crew is in that panicky summer phase where they are past graduation distractions and have plenty of free time to obsess about the process, the numbers. (I get it... they want to make some knowable sense of an unknowable.) And I am trying to help them prepare emotionally and pragmatically for SEC and Big 12 heartbreaks.

[Wynter]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I think people are misunderstanding the process. The "chapters" don't get to make the decisions first. The lists of chapters and PNMs are matched together every day. Top performing chapters and top performing PNMs get what they want first which leaves both weaker performing chapters and PNMs to take what is left over on their lists that makes them think it's not mutual selection. The "chapters" as a group aren't getting any choices before the PNMs. The lists must be matched. If chapter XYZ wants the top PNMs and they don't list XYZ, there is nothing they can do about it. PNMs want to whine when they get XYZ on their list, but XYZ also whines when they get PNMs they don't want every single day. It works both ways. In the end, this is the point of RFM...to make these women think about what is in front of them instead of what they can't have (from the PNM side and the chapter side.)

That's a good point that I didn't think of. And I know some chapters at my school have ended up having to give a bid to girls they didn't want, but because they weren't the "top dog" chapters they had no choice mathematically.

[carnation]

Now wait. There is no way in H__ that a chapter can be forced to take girls they don't want.

[Wynter]

Originally Posted by carnation

Now wait. There is no way in H__ that a chapter can be forced to take girls they don't want.

You know what you're probably right, but this is what I heard from girls in a certain chapter. Maybe because they didn't cut said girl earlier in the process or something?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by carnation

Now wait. There is no way in H__ that a chapter can be forced to take girls they don't want.

That's not what we're saying. Chapters, just like PNMs may keep getting those same names back when their list is run through that they don't necessarily want. The chapters can completely release girls, even if it means they are not maximizing their options, just like PNMs can refuse to attend parties and not maximize their options, but there are consequences to these options. Some chapters don't choose to take those chances just like many PNMs don't take that chance.