Gallup Poll says majority of Americans identify as pro-life

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

MC, you should have vote option #3!

I thought about, but I don't think "neither" fits either. "Both" maybe, but not "neither."

It goes back to your earlier statement -- it's just too complicated an issue to encapsulate in "Would you identify yourself as pro-life: Yes, No, Neither yes nor no."

[DrPhil]

Hence, the margin of error in surveys and polls.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

FWIW, my position is this:

• I think abortion should be legal with few if any restrictions in essentially the first trimester, with more restrictions as pregnancy progresses, and that it should be illegal if there is any chance of viability.
  
• I think abortion is never a "good" thing, and should be an option of last resort, but there are situations in which in may be a morally acceptable choice -- the lesser of evils.
  
• I think that only the people involved can really make the decision, which is why I think that the government's interest is very limited until such time as the pregnancy has progressed to the point of potential viability.
  
• I think, to quote the old saw, abortions should be safe, legal and rare, and that the best way to see fewer abortions is not to outlaw them (that will just lead to unsafe ones) but to do whatever can be done to avoid the need to consider them in the first place.
  
• I think that, if anyone tries to describe this position as "pro-abortion," the discussion is over.

Pretty much this with the addition that not all abortions are done because little Suzy got ku and wants to "take care of the problem" which is what I personally feel most people think when they hear the term abortion.

[texas*princess]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I think this is oversimplifying things. If Ann thinks a woman should have a right to choose abortion, that doesn't mean that Ann is pro-abortion. It could just mean that Ann thinks the government shouldn't get to decide what she does or doesn't do with her body. If you're looking for different terms for the debate, perhaps anti-abortion vs. anti-government would be more appropriate (solely in regards to the abortion debate).

I just think there are two very different arguments in play. There's the moral debate and there's the political debate. I think it's fair to say that some people who are pro-choice have that opinion because of the political/governmental concerns involved. Some of those same people might be pro-life from a moral perspective (meaning that if they were ever the one making the choice, they would always choose life).

/end soapbox

I think using pro-abortion and anti-abortion is just a gross oversimplification.

[agzg]

I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion. It's not my place to tell other people what to do with their bodies, and I firmly believe that before the viability of the fetus outside the mother's body, the fetus is more or less an extension of the mother's body and it's her right to decide what to do.

It's ok to call pro-life viewpoints anti-abortion I guess but "pro-abortion" for someone who is pro-choice insinuates that that person would like a free-for-all policy on abortion including late term abortions, encouraged abortions and unsafe practices which is just not true (for the bulk of us that are pro-choice).

For me with the point in my life that I'm at right now, should an unplanned pregnancy occur I would probably not get an abortion. However, I don't think it's right for the government to interfere in that (very private) decision.

FWIW, I do think it's odd that many conservatives want the government to more strongly regulate abortion or get rid of it all together, but there are so many aspects of their lives and finances where they want the government to GTFO, and liberals want the government to GTFO (somewhat) of abortion but are willing to allow the government to interfere in other aspects. That last sentence doesn't make much sense but I'm at a loss about how to put it.

[SWTXBelle]

MC - the original Gallup poll asked whether the respondents would identify themselves as pro-life or pro-choice. Yes, there is a problem with the question. I tracked the original language because I was discussing that particular poll.

BigRedBeta, I am familiar with many programs here in Houston, supported by anti-abortion groups, which offer free medical care and other support for pregnant women facing an unwanted pregnancy. I am also a big supporter of the Edna Gladney Center, which even offers mothers -to -be the chance to finish high school or go to college. http://www.adoptionsbygladney.com/

I don't believe in the kind of blackmail my sister espouses - "Pay me to raise this child or I'll kill it" essentially. There is a choice that can be made by those who do not wish to raise or cannot support a child - adoption. Right to Life groups exist to make sure every pregnant woman is able to bring a child into this world. That doesn't mean there is a moral obligation to enable every pregnant woman to suddenly be able to raise that child - hence the emphasis on adoption. It's a right-to-life (for the child), not a right-to-lifestyle (for the mother). And I think it fair to say that most of those women considering abortion are doing so because they feel they CAN'T have a child - so it would seem the best solution for most (not all, of course) is to enable them to have the child with the least amount of disruption to their lives.

Let me interject here that I think most of us fall somewhere between the extremes of NO ABORTIONS EVER and NO LIMIT AT ALL ON ABORTIONS. That said, why do y'all think there has been the shift in self-identification seen in this poll?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

MC - the original Gallup poll asked whether the respondents would identify themselves as pro-life or pro-choice. Yes, there is a problem with the question. I tracked the original language because I was discussing that particular poll.

Then I would have refused to answer Gallup, too. (Yes, I have been known to do that -- there was the one poor poll caller who kept repeating the "options" to me in a political poll, and I kept trying to tell her that none of the options fit my views, bit "none of the above" wasn't a choice. She finally said "okay, thanks," and hung up.)

As for why there has been a "shift" in self-identification in the poll, I usually want to see a number of polls before I'll say a shift is really occuring. But if I had to answer, it's because the terms offered for self-identification can mean different things to different people, making them less-than-useful for actually understanding what people think.

[texas*princess]

SWTX, that still doesn't address your choice of "pro abortion" vs "anti abortion"...there are at least a few points being made on the way you termed "pro abortion"

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I don't believe in the kind of blackmail my sister espouses - "Pay me to raise this child or I'll kill it" essentially.

Whaaaaa? Who ever said that? Not everyone choosing to have an abortion is wanting a hand out from the government or anyone else.

There is a choice that can be made by those who do not wish to raise or cannot support a child - adoption. Right to Life groups exist to make sure every pregnant woman is able to bring a child into this world. That doesn't mean there is a moral obligation to enable every pregnant woman to suddenly be able to raise that child - hence the emphasis on adoption. It's a right-to-life (for the child), not a right-to-lifestyle (for the mother). And I think it fair to say that most of those women considering abortion are doing so because they feel they CAN'T have a child - so it would seem the best solution for most (not all, of course) is to enable them to have the child with the least amount of disruption to their lives.

It's also medically possible right now to have an abortion, so why can't that be a choice too? Not everyone chose to get pregnant. What about those who were sexually abused and raped? Should they have to carry the child of some monster for 9 months because the government won't give them a choice on what to do w/ their bodies?

I don't know on average how many abortions are preformed every year or their reasons for doing it, but there are already a ton of kids in foster care waiting to be adopted - some that never ever get adopted and "age out" of the system. If the government randomly said 'OK ladies, you can either carry your baby to full term and keep it, or give it to the state and we'll hopefully find a place for it to live" could you imagine the strain on those systems?

Some people can't afford the healthcare they need for their baby during pregnancy either.

I just don't think it's right for the government to be able to pick what people can do or not do w/ their bodies. And if abortion is made illegal, they are still going to exist whether we want them to or not...people WILL find a way to get it done.... but they won't be able to be regulated by the government (i.e. how far in the term, and other abortion practices) and that can just make them unsafe.

[DrPhil]

Did anyone watch Dr. Phil yesterday?

It was an excellent show about men's rights. It touched on what SWTX said about blackmail and other topics.

[texas*princess]

I'm not a regular viewer of Dr. Phil... sorry

Can you elaborate a little bit?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Did anyone watch Dr. Phil yesterday?

Naw. You're the only Dr. Phil I pay attention to.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by texas*princess

I'm not a regular viewer of Dr. Phil... sorry

Can you elaborate a little bit?

"Forced to be a Father"

http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/1150/

If you have time, see how much the site shows you from yesterday's show.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Naw. You're the only Dr. Phil I pay attention to.

That warms my heart. LOL. I wish I remembered why I chose this username.

[ThetaPrincess24]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Personally, I think the "pro-life" and "pro-choice" tags aren't the most accurate way to tag either side. I prefer "anti-abortion" or "pro-abortion" because they get rid of a great deal of the posturing and get right to the heart of the discussion. (And spare me the "I want abortion to be legal but I'm not pro-abortion " statements- when the discussion is whether or not abortion should be legal, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you support the legality of abortion, you are pro. If you don't, you are anti.)

I agree with that!

[ThetaPrincess24]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

That reminds me of Boys' State when one guy referred to himself as pro-abortion, then made campaign speeches proclaiming 'abortions for EVERYONE including dudes'.

I'm pro-choice, but I don't think abortion is something that should be a frequent occurrence. In my ideal world, we'd give all the education we could, as well as tools like a multitude of birth control options, to prevent unwanted pregnancies. As a physician, the legality of abortion is important to me because women who want to terminate the pregnancy will, it's just a matter of whether they'll do it safely or not. Talk to any really old school OB/GYN (which of course their numbers are dwindling) who practiced or was trained in the pre - Roe v. Wade, and you'll hear horror stories of entire OB/GYN floors of inner city hospitals dedicated just to women with attempted abortions and the complications that arose from those attempts. Perforated uteri, punctured internal organs, sepsis, necrosis, death...bad bad stuff.

If anything, the pro-lifers, especially the ones that don't want sex ed in schools, are the ones who want their cake and to eat it too (and if they're anti-welfare, whoo, watch out). They want to make it so no one knows anything pregnancy, can't end it, and then is burdened with a child but can't receive help from the state. Talk about setting women up for failure with no way out...

I am one of many opinions. I am pro-life and anti-abortion. I recently changed my opinion on the death penalty. But in saying that, I am pro-sex education in schools though I'm on the fence as to how early it should start and what all it should include exactly. I am pro birth control--shots, pills, condoms, implants, IUD, sponge, foam, lubricants, and having "tubes tied" (the actual medical term for that slips my mind right now). I also believe with the exception of having tubes tied, the rest should be available to the public for free with no questions asked (this includes dispensers in school restrooms).

Abortion is currently legal in the US. I believe despite my preference, it will stay legal for quite a bit longer. So in the meantime,I am all for restrictions being in place: parental notification for minors wishing to have an abortion and be placed on any form of birth control that includes hormones and a medical procedure (such as implants & IUD), partial birth abortion bans, and women being counseled on all of their options fully in an unbiased way on all available options--keeping and raising the child, having and placing the child up for adoption, abortion, and the resources that are available. I work with this organization here http://www.assurancecare.org/. They provide a lot of free counseling, testing, abortion information, options for women and girls who are unsure. They dont perform abortions here, but will tell you where to go to get one should that be the choice made. Women who make the choice to abort shoudl also have access to free post-procedure counseling as well, should they begin to have feelings or regret and depression. It should not shun them or belittle them.

Regarding the welfare/government assistance debate. Sometimes this is necessary in order to help the mother/family get back on their feet. What I have a problem with are those who are on government assistance, know about how pregnancy is achieved, have access to freebie birth control methods, dont care, and continue having more children in order to get a bigger check from the government, and encourage their teen girls to continue the cycle and do the same. I encountered this scenario more times than I could count on a weekly basis in my last job. I wont continue to go on about this because I can write novels, but know atleast in my area the abuse of this system far outweighs those who are on it legitimately, and reform is needed.

[PhoenixAzul]

parental notification for minors wishing to have an abortion and be placed on any form of birth control that includes hormones and a medical procedure (such as implants & IUD),

I think this would be counterproductive. I'm thinking back to how I was at 16, and even though my parents are great people and we have an open relationship, I would have been HORRIFIED to ask them, "Hey mom/dad, I really want pills so I can have sex with my boyfriend, but I need you to sign this paper and take time off of work to take me to the clinic so I can get them."

I'm completely there with you on the education and counseling front. That's great. But requiring women to obtain permission to make health care decisions is not going to prevent unwanted pregnancies. If anything, I think it would create more. ("I'm too embarassed/my parents have religious objections to birth control/my parents don't understand/my parent(s) are the ones sexually abusing me.....So I'll just go without birth control".)