Evolution on "trial" in Kansas

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
You can try to muddy the waters between adaptation and evolution but they are not the same thing.

Adaptation is a part of Evolutionary Theory. Adaptation can be tested in a microscopic scale that goes from hypothesis, testing to conclusions and repetition of the results by more than one group. That is the business of Science. No one will believe you if only you can do the examination and get the result in Science.

I assure you God does care about whether we believe his Word.

God's Word is not what is being tested in evolution... Evolution has no words to be tested... It is just what occurs with repetition over cycles...

Evolution has not been proven, thus it is a theory, a work in progress, with many flaws, such as carbon dating inaccuracies and the lack of a "missing link."

I am not going to debate evolution vs creationism, but I am going to state again that - neither one should be taught as fact in the science class of a public school exclusively.

Yes, I agree, evolution is a work in progress which means, we scientists will always have an inquisitive minds with lifelong careers pursuing our very own questions for answers... Then as soon as we get one answer, then we have another question...

Whereas, in Christian Creationism, one is NOT allowed to questioned God's intent...

So why is killing, wrong? Animals do it everyday... And if you eat of the flesh, you are eating a killed animal--so isn't killing a sin? Can you reconcile that difference between the Spirit vs. living on Earth...

And stuffing down our throats that ONLY your beliefs are valid from your OWN perspective, God forbid you EVER suffer from ill will...

Hence, I will pray for you...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by honeychile
FWIW, here's how I see it: I have no problem at all with any and all theories of how we came to be being taught. In fact, I would want ALL theories discussed as that, theories - Big Bang, Evolution, Creationism, Toaster Worship, whatever. I think it's rather limiting to a child to not teach ALL the options.

I understand what you are saying Honeychile, however, how do you teach a basic bonehead biology 101 to a group of young people without those stauch Christian religious conservatives entering the room telling you that: 1) Gene mutations are a manifestion of God's Intelligent Design for make better humans; 2) but meanwhile, you have a loved one dying of cancer due to massive mutations in their metastatic tumor cells...

Evolution as a theory is not what is at stake here. It is the introduction of a religion in a science class that is the problem...

How do we researchers begin to discuss basic chemistry that can be easily tested by various machines with predictability and repetition and then introduce a God that ordained that process to occur and why should we change it???

Same goes for physics and astronomy... It is NOT because we scientists added our own perception of what we imagine what happened, because if you are a "real scientist" there would be no shame to your game... It is because we have tested and re-tested it and this is what the results are and other folks have repeated the same tests and get the same results...

I mean, dayum, protons, electrons and neutrons are in atoms... These things can be measured and are readily...

Can God be measured by human hands?

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
Are you asking about science classes only?

I'm mainly interested in that but wouldn't mind hearing about other classes as well. I've been out of school for a long time so I can't say I know much about what kids are being taught these days.

[lyrica9]

plain and simple, evolution and creationism are both theories. fine if you want to teach them both, but not in the same class or context. evolution is a scientific theory, creationism is a religious theory.

i'm all for having kids take religious theory classes that discuss theories of all religions so they can be better informed and to perhaps iradicate some of the stereotypes and misconceptions of people of certain religions that seem to be rampant these days.

but the idea of teaching biblical passages in a science class is just weird to me. i can't remember ever having been taught any sort of theory on the beginning of the earth in any level of schooling, so i guess Texas' current policy is to ignore it all together.

[ADPi Conniebama]

So you would have me believe that the Earth (and the Universe for that matter) is only 6000 years old or so? What pray tell supports that "theory"? The dinosaurs or other extinct species aren't mentioned in the Bible

Job 40:15 - Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

Isaiah 27:1 - In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

(RACOOPER) Dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible.

What pray tell supports that "theory"?
(I was gonna cut and paste but this was easier.) http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp

Again I just want evolution to be taught as a theory, not fact.

I am not going to take on the scientific GC community because well obviously I don't know EVERYTHING. I just don't want my tax dollars to pay for children to be taught "theory" as fact. And, just to make things clear, I don't want religion taught to children at public schools, in science classes, either because, I wouldn't want some Church of Christ teacher to teach a Baptist student their religious beliefs. (nothing against Church of Christ - I just used them as an example)

[RACooper]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
So you would have me believe that the Earth (and the Universe for that matter) is only 6000 years old or so? What pray tell supports that "theory"? The dinosaurs or other extinct species aren't mentioned in the Bible

Job 40:15 - Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

Isaiah 27:1 - In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

(RACOOPER) Dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible.

Ah but the Bible only refers to one "dinosaur" in the form of Levuathan...

What pray tell supports that "theory"?
(I was gonna cut and paste but this was easier.) http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp

Again I just want evolution to be taught as a theory, not fact.

Where as this site uses the approach that the lack of evidence of our ancestorial remains is proof that evolution is wrong (incomplete mayb, but flawed no). Creationists are willing to use lack of proof as a an arguement to support themselves, yet are unwilling to accept ample proof that they are wrong.

As for the website itself - even if the challenging of geological, astronimical, and anthropological dates where backed up with concrete and broad support - the dates and "facts" refute the Creationist arguements for a literal interpretation of the Bible.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
Again I just want evolution to be taught as a theory, not fact.

I am not going to take on the scientific GC community because well obviously I don't know EVERYTHING. I just don't want my tax dollars to pay for children to be taught "theory" as fact. And, just to make things clear, I don't want religion taught to children at public schools, in science classes...

So where does one start to teach "BASIC CONCEPTS" in science classes that must be KNOWN to go further to build a foundation...

For example: There are 2 hydrogens that ionically bind to one oxygen to form a water molecule. Many water molecules are visible in 3 forms: gas, liquid, solid. The amount of water in any form is a determination of "MASS". Mass is the atomic number given to an atom as a measure of atomic mass units. The more you increase amu's you reach the number of moles. Moles is measured in terms of Avogadro's number: 6.0233 X 10^-23...

These are time tested proven facts and theorems with mathematical calculations that transcend into the deep recesses of the Universe...

A water molecule will "look" the same if it is 1 million light years away verses 1 second away... Either way, it is STILL a water molecule...

The scientists determine these kinds of things with machines. There are several ways of doing it, but usually they use either a mass spectra analysis or nuclear magnetic resonance...

And that is how science is built... One step at a time...

Why H2O is the way it is is not a question that scientists try to answer because to us, it is irrelevant to us--water is there, why it is there is a better question to us that we like to answer... And how did some bacteria evolved a "way" to "nucleate water" to make ice is more interesting to us even moreso...

But why H2O has to be water--that is something that the religious right can ponder...

You are arguing epistemology... Look that word up and go from there...

[RACooper]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Is that true? What other Christian theories -- and specifically theories with no scientific basis -- are taught in public schools?

Well modern 'western' society is based upon Christian principles and theories of morals, ethics, and society - so any of the social sciences are bound to touch upon general Christian theories.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
I understand what you are saying Honeychile, however, how do you teach a basic bonehead biology 101 to a group of young people without those stauch Christian religious conservatives entering the room telling you that: 1) Gene mutations are a manifestion of God's Intelligent Design for make better humans; 2) but meanwhile, you have a loved one dying of cancer due to massive mutations in their metastatic tumor cells...

Evolution as a theory is not what is at stake here. It is the introduction of a religion in a science class that is the problem...

How do we researchers begin to discuss basic chemistry that can be easily tested by various machines with predictability and repetition and then introduce a God that ordained that process to occur and why should we change it???

Same goes for physics and astronomy... It is NOT because we scientists added our own perception of what we imagine what happened, because if you are a "real scientist" there would be no shame to your game... It is because we have tested and re-tested it and this is what the results are and other folks have repeated the same tests and get the same results...

I mean, dayum, protons, electrons and neutrons are in atoms... These things can be measured and are readily...

I understand what you're saying, too. I suppose I'm saying what I was taught in school - here are ALL the theories, take your pick. I would challenge these boneheaded children to consider, if they want to believe in God or Toast Worship, who or what created those atoms, protons, neutrons, etc, and why He or It gave us the ability to think, to use wisdom to change the wrongs of the world.

Can God be measured by human hands?

Of course not! That's what makes Him God, and we His creations!

[ADPi Conniebama]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet

You are arguing epistemology... Look that word up and go from there...

I am not arguing anything I am just stating for the last time. Public schools should not teach "theory" (or opinion) as FACT.
Public schools should not teach the "theory of evolution" as a scientific fact. The End.

AKA_Monet we all get it you are a scientist or a scientist wannabe. This thread does not lead me to "argue" with you about evolution. You have the right to believe what ever you want to believe, and study whatever you want to study. I respect your right to flex your scientific muscles on GC however you are arguing with yourself about, God knows what, when I was making a statement about how public schools shouldn't teach scientific theory vs scientific fact.

[GeekyPenguin]

There is a particular religious university located in my city that will not hire biology professors who believe in evolution.

I think this is partly hilarious and partly sad. I was taught in Catholic grade school that evolution was set in process by God, and I was taught in public school that the most popular school of thought regarding humans was that of evolution. My parents taught me the blend I was taught in Catholic schools.

My boyfriend is a pretty staunch creationist but he never had any education on evolution so I don't think he knows any better. We just agree to disagree on this issue.

[chideltjen]

[slight hijack] What is Toast[er] Worship? I'd look it up but I'm lazy and tired. [/sh]

I went to both public and private school. I was primarily taught Big Bang/Evolutionary theories up through high school. And then in my theology classes, I learned about Creationism. Best of both I suppose. Of course, my first high school history book had "Jesus Christ" as a key term.

And I'd recommend a good anthopology class to anyone. If anything, you get to study monkeys.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by chideltjen
[slight hijack] What is Toast[er] Worship? I'd look it up but I'm lazy and tired. [/sh]

I went to both public and private school. I was primarily taught Big Bang/Evolutionary theories up through high school. And then in my theology classes, I learned about Creationism. Best of both I suppose. Of course, my first high school history book had "Jesus Christ" as a key term.

And I'd recommend a good anthopology class to anyone. If anything, you get to study monkeys.

I was using the term as a catch-all phrase for worshipping or believing any theory which you wanted to believe. I only know of one Toaster Worshipper, and he's a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

[RACooper]

I just came up with some important questions about Creationism... if it is taught as a valid theory are kids going to have to learn the sky is realy a dome with water above it? That the stars are just lights in this dome? The womam was created as a servant for man? or where did Cain's wife come from - was she his sister?

[honeychile]

I'm going back to sixth-seventh grade for this, but the way I remember it, the teacher proposed several different theories of how the earth came to be. He mentioned that most of us were probably familiar with Creationism, then told us a little about it. Then Evolution, with an explanation. Then some of the more "out there" theories - the only one I can think of right now is that our world could be simply an atom on the big toe of a huge being who lived on another planet. Just the presentations of all theories.

No "this is right, this is wrong", no judgments at all. But then again, most of my pre-college education was non-judgmental and "make it your own" (we were never allowed to quote anything verbatim).

And again, I went to public school, an ultra-liberal one which was a pilot school for the state - no parochial school education whatsoever.

[valkyrie]

I'm just curious, but if you're a Christian who thinks the "theory of creationism" should be taught in public schools, would you be okay with public schools teaching about karma and rebirth? Let's say we call karma a theory, a fancy way of saying "cause and effect" -- is that cool?

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
I am not arguing anything I am just stating for the last time. Public schools should not teach "theory" (or opinion) as FACT.
Public schools should not teach the "theory of evolution" as a scientific fact.

Connie, you should read my above post, where I explain to you why, in science, sometimes 'theory' becomes approximated as 'fact', and why that's not only a good thing, but a necessary thing.

I don't mean to insult or intrude on your beliefs, but I do think you're not as well-grounded in science as some of us, and these concepts are not exactly intuitive without that grounding.

Originally posted by valkyrie
I'm just curious, but if you're a Christian who thinks the "theory of creationism" should be taught in public schools, would you be okay with public schools teaching about karma and rebirth? Let's say we call karma a theory, a fancy way of saying "cause and effect" -- is that cool?

This is EXACTLY the point I was trying to get at before - should we include stories from Buddhist or Hindu texts, for completeness? I get the distinct feeling people only want Genesis, which feels wrong to my simple mind.

Originally posted by valkyrie
I'm just curious, but if you're a Christian who thinks the "theory of creationism" should be taught in public schools, would you be okay with public schools teaching about karma and rebirth? Let's say we call karma a theory, a fancy way of saying "cause and effect" -- is that cool?

We do teach about karma, in world history, but not as fact. I also remember hearing about many different types of creation stories, including genesis, in literature classes. It's a complicated issue, I don' tknow that there is a right answer for everyone, because your point is exactly right valkyrie, in the sense that I dont' want every crazy theory known to man taught to my children as fact.

For example: A big issue is prayer in schools. I am a Christian and don't think that it should be allowed because I don't want a toaster worshipper leading my child in some butter and jelly prayer to the knife god. I dont' want a Satan worshipper teacher telling my kid about their religion. This was part of my point in character education....I don't want a teacher telling my children that accepting certain lifestyles or behaviors are ok. I am one that will probably send my kids to private school so I won't have to worry about this issue. NO I don't think Creationism should be taught in schools, but I don't like the other theories either. Maybe they can just skip that part of science class.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
I am not arguing anything I am just stating for the last time. Public schools should not teach "theory" (or opinion) as FACT.
Public schools should not teach the "theory of evolution" as a scientific fact. The End.

I don't know of any schools that are teaching "opinion" as fact; they are teaching evolution as "scientific theory," which is not the same as "opinion."

Part of the problem in the evolution vs. creationism/intelligent design battle is that many creationism/intelligent design proponents either do not know, or are exploiting the fact that their followers do not know, the meaning of "theory" in a scientific context, as KSig RC has pointed out.

In general usage, "theory" does mean "conjecture." In science, however, it doesn't. (Nor does it in music either, for that matter. ) In science, a "theory" is a generalization based on repeated observations and experiments. A scientific theory is a well-tested (and re-tested and re-re-tested), verified hypothesis that takes existing data and explains how processes or events are thought to occur. A scientific theory is based on overwhelming evidence in support of a general principle explaining the operation of certain phenomena or events that take place in the world. Theories can be modified as new information is gained.

The bottom line is that the existence of God cannot be subjected to scientific principles of testing, either to be proved or disproved (Dan Brown in "Angels and Demons" notwithstanding). "We walk by faith and not by sight." Thus, creationism and intelligent design cannot be proven scientifically. While I'm quite in agreement with the crux of intelligent design -- that the universe as a whole and life on earth in particular are simply too complex and precarious to have happened by chance, without a creator -- I don't see how that can be proven scientifically. Therefore, if ID is going to be taught, it should be taught as philosophy or theology, not as science.

Let science do what it is designed to do: answer "how" and "when" questions. The "who" and "why" certainly should be asked as well, but not in science class.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
We do teach about karma, in world history, but not as fact. I also remember hearing about many different types of creation stories, including genesis, in literature classes. It's a complicated issue, I don' tknow that there is a right answer for everyone, because your point is exactly right valkyrie, in the sense that I dont' want every crazy theory known to man taught to my children as fact.

Yes -- this is exactly why I think these things should not be taught in pubic schools. You might think "karma" or whatever else is a crazy theory, but I think "god" is a crazy theory. That's why I think it's best for public schools to, as much as possible, stay away from anything that's blatantly religious.