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Evolution on "trial" in Kansas

Quote:

]TOPEKA, Kansas (Reuters) -- Evolution is going on trial in Kansas.

Eighty years after a famed courtroom battle in Tennessee pitted religious beliefs about the origins of life against the theories of British scientist Charles Darwin, Kansas is holding its own hearings on what school children should be taught about how life on Earth began.

The Kansas Board of Education has scheduled six days of courtroom-style hearings to begin Thursday in Topeka. More than two dozen witnesses will give testimony and be subject to cross-examination, with the majority expected to argue against teaching evolution.

Many prominent U.S. scientific groups have denounced the debate as founded on fallacy and have promised to boycott the hearings, which opponents say are part of a larger nationwide effort by religious interests to gain control over government.

"I feel like I'm in a time warp here," said Topeka attorney Pedro Irigonegaray who has agreed to defend evolution as valid science. "To debate evolution is similar to debating whether the Earth is round. It is an absurd proposition."

Widespread debate
Irigonegaray's opponent will be attorney John Calvert, managing director of the Intelligent Design Network, a Kansas organization that argues the Earth was created through intentional design rather than random organism evolution.

The group is one of many that have been formed over the last several years to challenge the validity of evolutionary concepts and seek to open the schoolroom door to ideas that humans and other living creatures are too intricately designed to have come about randomly.

While many call themselves creationists, who believe that God was the ultimate designer of all life, they are stopping short of saying creationism should be taught in schools.

"We're not against evolution," said Calvert. "But there is a lot of evidence that suggests that life is the product of intelligence. I think it is inappropriate for the state to prejudge the question whether we are the product of design or just an occurrence."

Debates over evolution are currently being waged in more than a dozen states, including Texas where one bill would allowing for creationism to be taught alongside evolution.

Kansas has been grappling with the issue for years, garnering worldwide attention in 1999 when the state school board voted to downplay evolution in science classes.

Subsequent elections altered the membership of the school board and led to renewed backing for evolution instruction in 2001. But elections last year gave religious conservatives a 6-4 majority and the board is now finalizing new science standards, which will guide teachers about how and what to teach students.

The current proposal pushed by conservatives would not eliminate evolution entirely from instruction, nor would it require creationism be taught, but it would encourage teachers to discuss various viewpoints and eliminate core evolution claims as required curriculum.

School board member Sue Gamble, who describes herself as a moderate, said she will not attend the hearings, which she calls "a farce." She said the argument over evolution is part of a larger agenda by Christian conservatives to gradually alter the legal and social landscape in the United States.

"I think it is a desire by a minority... to establish a theocracy, both within Kansas and growing to a national level," Gamble said.

Old Testament teachings
Some evolution detractors say that the belief that humans, animals and organisms evolved over long spans of time is inconsistent with Biblical teachings that life was created by God. The Bible's Old Testament says that God created life on Earth including the first humans, Adam and Eve, in six days.

Detractors also argue that evolution is invalid science because it cannot be tested or verified and say it is inappropriately being indoctrinated into education and discouraging consideration of alternatives.

But defenders say that evolution is not totally inconsistent with Biblical beliefs, and it provides a foundational concept for understanding many areas of science, including genetics and molecular biology.

The theory of evolution came to prominence in 1859 when Darwin published "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection," and it was the subject of a 1925 trial in Tennessee in which teacher John Thomas Scopes was accused of violating a ban against teaching evolution.

Kansas School Board chairman Steve Abrams said the hearings are less about religion than they are about seeking the best possible education for the state's children.

"If students ... do not understand the weaknesses of evolutionary theory as well as the strengths, a grave injustice is being done to them," Abrams said.

LINK

Ok here we go I am sure I will be bombed for this statement, so please make sure you read it clearly prior to judging me.

Evolution is a theory. Christianity is a religion that gives a "theory" for creation. Evolution should in NO WAY be taught as fact. If evolution is taught, then creationism should be taught along side of it as two opposite theories by a science teacher who understands both theories.

Christians should not get fooled into believing that God started the evolution process, because that is not biblical. I do believe in adaptation of humans and animals (for instance we are taller now then we use to be), but the theory that the earth has been around for Billions of years is not biblical. People have a right to believe what ever they want but children should not be exclusively taught one theory as fact in a public school.

Ok let the bombing begin.

The journal Nature's stance on ID

Sweetheart, ADPi Conniebama,

I wish it were just about a belief system and a choice. But given the field that I am in and my career, there are many quickly advancing techonologies that the strongest literal interpretation of the Bible is incapable of answering directly...

That is why many scientists refrain from applying a Puritanical view to science because one must free one's mind to be open to the possibilities that some issues in science can be resolved, then some will not... Period.

We either deal with it or we don't...

The fact is, if you have been vaccinated against measles/mumps/rubella, then you are practicing evolution...

If you eat any food from a regular grocery chain, then you are practicing evolution...

If you are driving a car, then you are practicing evolution...

I think God is into Revolution--spelled Revelations...

God could care less about what humans believe...

"It is important to note that biological evolution refers to populations and not to individuals and that the changes must be passed on to the next generation. In practice this means that,

Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations."
(the above is from a "definition of evolution" from the web)

The fact is, if you have had a vaccination for measles/mumps/rubella, then you are practicing evolution... (ADAPTATION)

If you eat any food from a regular grocery chained market, then you are practicing evolution... (SHOPPING)

If you are driving a car, then you are practicing evolution... (TRANSPORTATION)

I am not saying for a teacher to "preach" the "puritanical view to science." I am saying for teachers not to teach a theory as fact. EVOLUTION IS A THEORY.

Quote:

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
"It is important to note that biological evolution refers to populations and not to individuals and that the changes must be passed on to the next generation. In practice this means that,

Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations."
(the above is from a "definition of evolution" from the web)

But what are heritable units that change in an environment as measured in science?

It is DNA. And the DNA mutation rates are readily measured by sequencing the genome.

There is also epigenetic phenomena that explain how phenotypes are diverse...

Quote:

The fact is, if you have had a vaccination for measles/mumps/rubella, then you are practicing evolution... (ADAPTATION)

Adaptation is a manifestion of evolution as a process of Natural Selection...

Natural Selection occurs through 5 main processes... One that most know is survival of the fittest. The ability of a population to survive given the damage of its environments...

Adaptation is another process of Natural Selection--we just deal with it... Have you ever had measles/mumps/rubella or diptheria/pertussis toxin? Polio? If you have and you know you would die from it without a vaccine, then wouldn't you find a way to adapt with your higher ordered thinking that a mere microbe with genetic information and LIVE?

Quote:

If you eat any food from a regular grocery chained market, then you are practicing evolution... (SHOPPING)

Most food from all large grocery chains are treated for sterility. Unless it says organic, all foods are probably irradiated or animals treated with antibiotics so that their food products would be safe for human consumption...

Without that treatment, many folks during the depression died due to starvation because crops failed and animals died to disease--all caused by human's over farming in the great plains states...

The lessons learned from that with FDR's "new deal" program made it possible for the farming collective to avoid an environmental catastrophe that was caused by humans...

Quote:

If you are driving a car, then you are practicing evolution... (TRANSPORTATION)

The idea of a perpetual motion machine is an engineering feat that no one ever imagined. Then the advent of petroleum based fuels to propel a car transportation made it possible to things that could even fly...

Man is not suppose to fly, otherwise he'd be given wings...

However, if you have been in an airplane recently, man has found a way to defeat gravity for a time period, at least...

Quote:

I am not saying for a teacher to "preach" the "puritanical view to science." I am saying for teachers not to teach a theory as fact. EVOLUTION IS A THEORY.

I wish it was just about a "theory" that unsupported without facts... But what is a theory? And how does one do science?

Now, if you WANT to argue that structure, then science must adhere to some constructs that "ID" cannot cross without the "politicizing" of it, which hinders invention, innovation and evolution...

Like I said, God could care less about what humans think with what was done...

God is more interested in "Revelation" of the human Spirit...

And even that is being "mapped" to some neurological transmitters that are proteins, which originate from heritable units--as DNA...

You can try to muddy the waters between adaptation and evolution but they are not the same thing.

I assure you God does care about whether we believe his Word.

Evolution has not been proven, thus it is a theory, a work in progress, with many flaws, such as carbon dating inaccuracies and the lack of a "missing link."

I am not going to debate evolution vs creationism, but I am going to state again that - neither one should be taught as fact in the science class of a public school exclusively.

I'm glad that for once my home state isn't the butt of these jokes :D

It's ironic that the same folks supporting us going overseas to set up secular governments where religious ones exist are often the same folks trying to establish a theocracy at home.

Quote:

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
You can try to muddy the waters between adaptation and evolution but they are not the same thing.

And you can try to muddy the waters by misapplying labels, as well - in fact, the 'theory' of creationism is not the same as the 'Theory' of evolution.

Evolution of humans is a theory in the purest sense because we cannot extend the time frame long enough to observe it as it happens. However, we CAN observe evolutionary behavior on a microscale. Human evolution occurs on a macroscale.

The process of 'proving' a theory is a dialectic procedure in which hypotheses are created, tested, and adapted. We have support for the hypotheses implicit in evolutionary behavior in humans. We can support these concepts by observing organisms with far shorter lifespans as they evolve, both under laboratory conditions and in the wild.

You are correct in the sense that theoretical science can never 'prove' evolution in the way that a math problem can be solved; rather, the hypotheses are changed constantly, each time getting closer to the truth.

That said, I see a few problems with teaching 'Creationism' in schools -

1 - Creationist sciences, for the vast majority of people, is Christian science. This means that, in order for legal teaching of Creationism, the Creation mythology for multiple religions and cultures would need to be taught. Church/state and all that - and I don't want to speak for you, Connie, but I would assume you simply want the story of Genesis told. This shouldn't fly.

2 - Creationist concepts differ strongly from evolutionary sciences in that there is NO SCIENTIFIC SUPPORT FOR CREATIONISM. Current legitimate science has found no support for the Genesis myth, but we have decades of support for evolution. Teaching them side-by-side, quite frankly, is unfair to Creationist theories - you'd be better off teaching your kids at home.

I also think you misunderstand the fundamental nature of adaptive evolution, as well - but that's for another time. The bottom line is that there is a scientific process to going about testing theories - Evolution follows that procedure. Creationism does not. They are not at all 'theories' in the same sense.

Quote:

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
Christians should not get fooled into believing that God started the evolution process, because that is not biblical. I do believe in adaptation of humans and animals (for instance we are taller now then we use to be), but the theory that the earth has been around for Billions of years is not biblical. People have a right to believe what ever they want but children should not be exclusively taught one theory as fact in a public school.

Ok let the bombing begin.

Ahem... your branch of the Christian faith, whereas my "branch" - Roman Catholic, is perfectly okay with Evolution.

So you would have me believe that the Earth (and the Universe for that matter) is only 6000 years old or so? What pray tell supports that "theory"? The dinosaurs or other extinct species aren't mentioned in the Bible... so were do they fit in to Creationism? Or for that matter were do the other Hominids fit in?

Lastly a a thought that an old and wise priest once shared when he was challenged about Creationism versus Evolution during a class on Human Evolution:

"How do you know that God is done making us in his image? and how do you know that Evolution isn't his medium? In the Evolution of the Modern Human species we came within a hairs breath of extinction in the face of global cataclysm, down to an estimated 2000 members of the entire race; the fact that we survived and indeed thrived is to me the greatest proof of the divine."

We just had our "evolution" trial in GA, and God lost again.

[hijack] One also has to realize that the Bible has been translated many, many times, and it is very difficult to translate word-for-word. Neither the Hebrew Scriptures or the Christian Scriptures were originally in English, so things can be lost in translation. A woman in a few of my classes a few years ago is very Christian and would get into debates with the prof, who is Jewish. The prof told her (and the rest of the class) that (for example) the Hebrew version of Genesis said that God took a side of Adam while in English, He took one of Adam's ribs. Now, I have not read Genesis in Hebrew, nor can I read Hebrew, so I wouldn't know. [/hijack]

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program

For anyone who doesn't understand the theory (regarded as fact) of evolution and believes they can discount it, I'd suggest taking a series of Bio courses.

It might clear things up; but only if your mind is open.

If you want your kids to learn creationism, take them to church or teach them at home. It's really simple.

Quote:

Originally posted by RACooper
Ahem... your branch of the Christian faith, whereas my "branch" - Roman Catholic, is perfectly okay with Evolution.

As are most branches of Christianity. It's only that minority of Christians who think that the creation story in Genesis (well, the 2 slightly contradictory creation stories in Genesis) must be read literally that have the problem.

Many Christians understand quite well that science and Scripture are asking and answering two very different questions with regard to creation: Science asks "how" and "when" and Scripture asks "who" and "why."

Quote:

Originally posted by Taualumna
[hijack] One also has to realize that the Bible has been translated many, many times, and it is very difficult to translate word-for-word. Neither the Hebrew Scriptures or the Christian Scriptures were originally in English, so things can be lost in translation. [/hijack]

One also has to understand that the Bible is written in a variety of literary forms, some of which can be read literally and some of which must be understood metaphorically or even poetically. This is true both of whole book and of specific verses, and part of the task is to tell how certain portions should be read and understood. For example, when Jesus said he was a door, a vine, a shepherd, light, etc., his words cannot be taken literally. He was speaking truthfully but certainly not factually.

Likewise, most Christians understand that the first chapters of Genesis can be Truthful without being necessarily factual.

FWIW, here's how I see it: I have no problem at all with any and all theories of how we came to be being taught. In fact, I would want ALL theories discussed as that, theories - Big Bang, Evolution, Creationism, Toaster Worship, whatever. I think it's rather limiting to a child to not teach ALL the options.

But if a parent has a particular theory that they want to espouse, they should say something to the effect that While the Big Bang theory sounds good, our family believes in Toaster Worship, and discuss the pros and cons with the child.

It's just like mythology - some private schools don't teach Greek or Roman mythology because they might been seen as promoting it, but later in life, it's beneficial to know the meaning behind having the Sword of Damacles over one's head, or opening a Pandora's box. It's enough a part of popular culture that studying literature without it is somewhat banal.

And if you have a particular agenda in mind, and can find a school that fits that agenda, for heaven's sake, send your child there!! I went to an ultra-liberal school district, and I very much doubt that even one person on GC would label me a liberal. Children will gravitate towards what they feel is right, and what they're taught at home - but having all of the options explained will only benefit them in the long run.