kappa sigma at fgcu?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Any other case cites? These are helpful.

I'll leave it to your lawyer to do your research.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Do you know of Sigma Chi has appealed to the SCOTUS?

Originally Posted by MysticCat

As far as I know, no effort was made to seek review of the Sigma Chi case in the Supreme Court. And yes, I think the holding is correct would likely be mirrored in most courts. Leonie Brinkema isn't a lightweight.

My understanding is the same. As such, Iota Xi efforts - with the support of HQ - is toward reducing the campus imposed suspension.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Mystic you called the differences "irrelevant" earlier in reference to your stance on official recognition affecting freedom of association rights for expressive organizations, which ignores the equal protection analysis. What say you about equal protection? Seems like a university would have to have disciplinary sanctions to get around the EP argument, so I'm not comfortable this holding would be applied in other courts, at all.

It doesn't ignore the equal protection analysis, it's part of the equal protection analysis. The court in Iota Xi Chapter found there there was no deprivation of expressive associational rights because lack of recognition in no way affected the rights of the chapter's members to associate with each other. If there is no deprivation of rights, there is no valid equal protection claim.

Equal protection is also where similarly situated organizations come into play. The chapter would have to show that it is being treated differently from other similarly situated organizations, which would in this case be other chapters attempting to come onto campus.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Equal protection is also where similarly situated organizations come into play. The chapter would have to show that it is being treated differently from other similarly situated organizations, which would in this case be other chapters attempting to come onto campus.

Isnt that rather the point to be made? Kappa Sigma is not being allowed the same rights as other similarly treated organizations? Until very recently, they were even denied access to the applications necessary to become an RSO.

What makes that interesting; is the school then turns around when asked and claims Kappa Sigma never applied... only interesting, when they weren't allowed to apply.

Put aside where they can or cannot be for meetings... what are your thoughts on equal access to even attempt to apply for any recognition (either by school or IFC)

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Isnt that rather the point to be made? Kappa Sigma is not being allowed the same rights as other similarly treated organizations? Until very recently, they were even denied access to the applications necessary to become an RSO.

See my earlier comment.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'm also aware that many of us on a message board may have a very incomplete understanding of what has actually happened at FGCU, and that a better understanding may change our thinking (including possibly my "similarly situated" argument).

Judging solely from the not-always-consistent description I have seen here, I don't think I see a real equal protection argument.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Lane, I have said multiple times- we chose our own actions. We knew challenging university policies would be a tough and long road. Those are our decisions and we stand behind them. This is another acknowledgment that we are here because we choose to be.

Now, where we disagree is the effect of challenging those "policies" and that's what I am trying to convey. FGCU shouldn't be worried about us following any legal and fair "rules." Like I've said before, we will follow rules that every other organization has to follow, such as turning in rosters, attending seminars, keeping officer information up to date, etc. Those are "rules" to follow. But telling us we're not welcome on campus is not a rule to follow, it's a denial of rights. We are standing up for our rights. I'm trying to convey to you the difference between the government requiring you to register to vote (a rule) and denying you the right to vote. Refusing to register to vote is bucking a rule, but we weren't even given the option, we were told you can't vote. See the difference there? We can't "follow wishes or policies" of FGCU that amount to being denied our right to exist, that is not being given a rule to follow.

"Blameless" isn't the issue, we are standing up for our rights, and want to address the legality of FGCU denying the undergraduates students in kappa Sigma official recognition. We have the right to do so, I hope you agree.

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

LaneSig,

Choice #2 isn't "Eff you!" on our part. Do you label everyone protecting their 1st Amendment Rights this way? We were told "Eff you!" by the school. It's hard trading points with you because of your lack of understanding for what is going on here. If a group is protesting on a public sidewalk, and the police tell them "No" or "Eff you get out of here," and the group persists, then who is right? You may not like what we have to say, but you have to accept the fact that we have the right to say it. See the difference there? We never said "Eff you" we respectfully said this is the United States of America and under the laws of this country, you can't deny us the right to freely associate, and thus we support the young men on campus who want to be a part of our organization. We are sticking up for our rights, what do you not see about this? If your local city government put a gag order on your First Amendment rights, what would you say? Why on earth would you stick up for the government violating the rights that for centuries we have fought so hard to protect. Contrary to Princess' statements, you wouldn't make anyone I know proud. All you are doing is condemning these kids for standing up for themselves. Challenging the system is difficult, and there are many naysayers along the way. We did choose our own path, but like I said before, we aren't afraid of the struggle. You should be ashamed of yourself as a United States American.

MysticCat, since you are legally educated, can you please drop the bias for one second and help progress this discussion along? Yes, I'm asking for a neutral statement from you since all of you who have been on this Greek Chat thing for years seem to stick together. Please describe the difference to your cronies between disagreeing with a message and disagreeing with the right to present the message.

Rambler, it's nearly impossible to conduct intelligent and constructive discourse on this thing. All anyone wants to focus on is the negative. Not one person will stand up and say "Although I disagree with your stance, I acknowledge you have the right to say it." LaneSig's example #2 from above is the perfect example. He describes our actions in defending our right to equal protection as saying "Eff You." You can't get anywhere in a conversation when these people fail to understand the basics of our Bill of Rights.

Okay, so since I don't agree with your position, that makes me a person who no one you know would be proud of and un-American? I thought one of your points about Kappa Sigma was that it was okay to disagree and not want to go with the flow. That's part of your argument about Kappa Sigma's stance with FGCU. But, apparently it only applies to Kappa Sigma and not people who disagree with you.

I never said that the stance of equal protection is "F--- you". I said that when they asked you to wait - whether they gave you a time frame or not- your actions of going ahead and colonizing was a (metaphorical) "F--- you." Not the latter actions, but the initial action.

So, I'm actually going to far as to quote myself. I gave clear thought in showing what the initial actions were that led up to the point. However, you chose to focus on Choice #2 and ignore what might have possibly happened with Choice #1. You also chose to ignore the comments about your 2nd post where you questioned our fraternity/sorority memberships and did not realize that you are logging with a great many alumns.

I said it before, let me repeat: Until ryquis came misreading what I wrote (go back and look), this was a genial discussion and no one had said anything negative about Kappa Sigma, the colony, or FGCU. No one had called names. It was a factual discussion until that point.

Originally Posted by LaneSig

Again, was not meaning to insinuate. But, one time you said that the Greek Life Office said "no" and didn't give any explanations and another time you said that you were told "not now" and the process they had implemented (invitation to fraternities) explained. So, do you see why your story would be questioned?

Okay- here is how I see it. In November, 2008, Kappa Sigma asked to colonize. You were told "No/Not now. We want to control to colonization process. We are inviting groups to present and we will select the best one for our campus." (roughly worded)

Kappa Sigma had 2 choices:
Choice #1 - "Wow, that really sucks. We really want to be part of FGCU's growing Greek Life. Okay, we don't agree. But, when you decide to expand IFC, we want to give you a presentation that will blow your socks off. You are going to beg us to colonize. You are going to be so overwhelmed by the guys we select, you'll want them to marry your daughters. We'll keep in touch because we want to be THE ONE!"

Choice #2 - "F--- you. We're going to colonize anyway. You can't stop us. It's our right."

Since the colony then began in December, 2008, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you chose Choice #2.

So, all the arguments about laws and whether or not you have to be in the campus IFC aside, you created your own situation and problems. As I stated in an earlier post, is Kappa Sigma so desparate for colonies that they had to colonize at FGCU? What would have hurt you all by waiting? Seriously, no law talk. What would have hurt?

If you had waited, you could have created a kick-ass presentation that showed what a great National Organization with Fantastic Members you have (and no, I'm not being sarcastic. I have many Kappa Sigma friends. A person who is one of my best friends - lay down my life for- is a Kappa Sig.) If you had waited, you would have shown the Administration how, even if you didn't agree with the process, you were respectful to it. If you had picked Choice #1, you probably would have been selected. You would have been welcomed with open arms by the Administration and the FGCU Greek community. They would have worked with you to ensure your success on campus.

But, you chose Choice #2. You chose the path of most resistance. You chose to go against the wishes of the Administration and fight them instead of working with them to help yourselves. You chose to tell them that their rules don't matter to you. Is it any wonder that they are throwing roadblocks up? If you chose to go against their wishes, why should the Administration think that Kappa Sigma is going to follow any rules set for the campus? The attitude of Choice #2 is "We're going to do what we want, when we want, and we don't care what you say or want." Do you understand that that is what this situation looks like to me, if not all of us?

As for Greek Chat, if you go back and start reading from the beginning, you will see that FSUZeta asked a simple question. I responded with the facts as I knew them. From what has been said on here, I believe in my initial post that I had the facts correct. Jenny responded with some extra information, being a member of the campus we are speaking of. It was only after a new poster, someone who ISN'T EVEN A MEMBER of Kappa Sigma came on and began blasting us, telling me I got my facts wrong, and was pointed out by 33girl that I didn't.

I defended what I said and spoke against his idea of the process. You then joined and told me that I didn't have one of my facts straight, telling me to be educated, not opinionated.

That's when you created your own problems with the members of GC. Your 2nd post began with questioning whether or not we are fraternity and sorority members. Calling us children, when as I pointed out, we are mostly alumns. Yes, a member called you a name. If that is how you react to a random stranger calling you a name on a chatboard, I wonder how you are treating and speaking to the administrators and Greek Life members at FGCU who are not treating you in what you see as a fair manner.

Sorry, but Kappa Sigma created their own problems on FGCU and you created your own problems with the members of GC.

And, you have never answered one of my simple questions: If Kappa Sigma does not wish to be a member of the NIC, why are they trying to get support from NIC members and using NIC resolutions as part of their argument?

And, for the record, read the last paragraph again. It is simple. It is not sarcastic in the least. I have asked you a couple of times and so has knight_shadow. Why do you not wish to answer?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

And, for the record, read the last paragraph again. It is simple. It is not sarcastic in the least. I have asked you a couple of times and so has knight_shadow. Why do you not wish to answer?

Add to that:

1) Are you an undergraduate, and if so, how are you advising the chapter?

2) What kind of legal background do you have?

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Still curious as to why you would support universities being able to deny meeting rooms on campus?

And still curious on why you will not answer what was wrong with Choice #1 and why you refuse to acknowledge or answer why you are using NIC resolutions when you are not a member of NIC.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

And still curious on why you will not answer what was wrong with Choice #1 and why you refuse to acknowledge or answer why you are using NIC resolutions when you are not a member of NIC.

I think that one should be obvious by now... We do not feel the school's position is correct. Kappa Sigma absolutely does want to be part of the FGCU greek system; and it is having its place there; as requested by the students.

Kappa Sigma made a decision to support the students who wanted this fraternities presence at FGCU, despite the uphill battle they knew it would be.

In terms of the NIC; each of the members at FGCU have given their support nationally to Kappa Sigma; even knowing that Kappa Sigma is not a member of NIC. I believe it shows that giving this support to a non-member; is evident that open expansion is the wish of all nationals. I believe that almost all, if not all actually gave this support in writing. The only one I am not 100% sure if we have a written letter from is Sigma Chi - however I know that they at least did provide a verbal pledge of support for Kappa Sigma at FGCU.
So, no Kappa Sigma is not part of NIC; but every member still supports Kappa Sigma.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

I think that one should be obvious by now... We do not feel the school's position is correct. Kappa Sigma absolutely does want to be part of the FGCU greek system; and it is having its place there; as requested by the students.

Kappa Sigma made a decision to support the students who wanted this fraternities presence at FGCU, despite the uphill battle they knew it would be.

In terms of the NIC; each of the members at FGCU have given their support nationally to Kappa Sigma; even knowing that Kappa Sigma is not a member of NIC. I believe it shows that giving this support to a non-member; is evident that open expansion is the wish of all nationals. I believe that almost all, if not all actually gave this support in writing. The only one I am not 100% sure if we have a written letter from is Sigma Chi - however I know that they at least did provide a verbal pledge of support for Kappa Sigma at FGCU.
So, no Kappa Sigma is not part of NIC; but every member still supports Kappa Sigma.

That's another issue that's irking me. All of the chapters are contradicting their respective I/HQs by voting against KS? Doesn't sound right.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

That's another issue that's irking me. All of the chapters are contradicting their respective I/HQs by voting against KS? Doesn't sound right.

I agree. And yet there is written documentation from them... (like I said, not 100% about in writing or not from Sigma Chi, but I know there is written support from each of the others). In fact, it was a letter sent from KA to the IFC president (a KA) that led to us having the meeting with the IFC, saying that KA does support Kappa Sigma and open expansion and in which the undergrad was told directly "it is time to right what been wronged."

All voted against, except 1. One did vote in favor (was secret ballot, so cant so who it was)

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

I think that one should be obvious by now... We do not feel the school's position is correct. Kappa Sigma absolutely does want to be part of the FGCU greek system; and it is having its place there; as requested by the students.

Kappa Sigma made a decision to support the students who wanted this fraternities presence at FGCU, despite the uphill battle they knew it would be.

In terms of the NIC; each of the members at FGCU have given their support nationally to Kappa Sigma; even knowing that Kappa Sigma is not a member of NIC. I believe it shows that giving this support to a non-member; is evident that open expansion is the wish of all nationals. I believe that almost all, if not all actually gave this support in writing. The only one I am not 100% sure if we have a written letter from is Sigma Chi - however I know that they at least did provide a verbal pledge of support for Kappa Sigma at FGCU.
So, no Kappa Sigma is not part of NIC; but every member still supports Kappa Sigma.

Rambler -

I understand the position that Kappa Sigma took. I really, truly do (despite your advisor calling me unAmerican and a person no one should be proud of).

The point I was trying to make in the post where I listed the choices is that even if you didn't agree with FGCU, Kappa Sigma still had choices. Can you see from an outsiders perspective that even if Choice #1 wasn't the Sunshine and Ponies choice, it would have gotten y'all where you wanted eventually. Even if the time frame wasn't clear. My point was, why was waiting such a bad choice? That's one of the questions I wanted answered.

Choice #2 is what many from an outside perspective are seeing. That you refused to wait (asked and denied in November, colonized in December) and in doing so, made it look you were not respectful to the Administration's wishes. I was trying to get your advisor to see how actions on your part might be looked at by the Administration and others.

The whole NIC thing. When advisor first came on, he blasted me and a couple of others with how we were not following NIC resolutions of open expansion. The point that I and Knight_Shadow have been trying to make to him is that it looks hyprocritical for a group that left the NIC to ask for NIC support and quote NIC resolutions, when you are not wanting to be in the NIC (not IFC).

No one here is against expansions or for colonies being treated unfairly. No one here is rooting for Kappa Sigma colony at FGCU to fail. But, your fellow KS brother is not winning your cause any fans.

[KSUViolet06]

This thread is way too long, Can I get the Cliff's notes version?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

This thread is way too long, Can I get the Cliff's notes version?

KSigAdvisor is in this picture. He really is. Look hard.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

The point I was trying to make in the post where I listed the choices is that even if you didn't agree with FGCU, Kappa Sigma still had choices. Can you see from an outsiders perspective that even if Choice #1 wasn't the Sunshine and Ponies choice, it would have gotten y'all where you wanted eventually. Even if the time frame wasn't clear. My point was, why was waiting such a bad choice? That's one of the questions I wanted answered.

Simply put; because Kappa Sigma was supporting the interest of the students who wanted to form as Kappa Sigma at FGCU.

Kappa Sigma didnt look at FGCU and wonder why there wasnt a chapter there; the students unhappy with the choices at FGCU contacted Kappa Sigma.

I dont think its an understatement to say that since college students are only students for a certain number of years; for Kappa Sigma to truly support these men, waiting an unknown amount of time was not the option they felt (and still feel) was best.