Hazing -- Good or bad?

[starang21]

ummm......

[KAY10]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

We had a few pledges go to the ER while I was there, but it wasn't for alcohol or getting beat up or anything. We're guys, we do things that can injure, it happens regardless of "hazing."

I feel ya on that one man.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by bows&toes

I'm wondering how you come up with that conclusion?

Do you profess to possess the knowledge of all things GLO-related?

[starang21]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Do you profess to possess the knowledge of all things GLO-related?

he's rainman's twin

[rbwrath]

just wanted to give my opinion of what's going on in this seemingly endless thread.

There is a humongous problem with the definition of hazing. While the definitions do differ slightly according to who you ask, generally one can agree that it is usually too vague.

There should be no room in any chapter for endangering the life of a pledge... duh. Where it gets hazy(no pun intended) is what people have been referring to as "good hazing."

From what I have heard and read, according to the law:
It IS hazing to have mandatory study tables.
It IS hazing to force pledges to dress nicely on certain days.
It IS hazing to require them to do interviews with members.
etc. etc. etc.

Would most organizations consider this bad? Probably not. But if you are trying to legitimately be a non-hazing chapter... these actions cannot and should not be within your pledge program.

I am ALWAYS trying to keep my chapter a non-hazing chapter. There are always actives in the picture when pledges are asked to do something. But does that make it a non-hazing activity? Maybe, maybe not... with the vague definition of hazing, you can never tell if something will come around the corner and hit you like a Mack truck.

IMO (if you haven't noticed already), the definition of hazing is the root of all of these problems. There are definitely ways to create a no-danger-to-the-pledge-mentally-and-physically pledge program that could instill what these Southern fraternity men are posting about.

The people that are opposing all hazing are not understanding that the activities named above (under good hazing) IS HAZING. And apparently you guys (at least from what i can tell at 3 in the morning) are agreeing that those activities are BENEFICIAL for the chapter. If some official was to seriously investigate those activities, there is a chance, however slight, that the chapter could be shut down based on those activities.

Follow me on this if you will:
The only possible consequence for a non-hazing fraternity is a forced depledge. You cannot MAKE them do anything. They always have the option of saying no. The consequence for saying no is forced depledge.

But once you force them out of your organization for not doing something, isn't that hazing? Even in a fully hazing chapter, the worst thing way to punish a pledge is to kick them out.

The line is too vague as is. I'm sure that most chapters decide upon who to initiate based on the pledge's loyalty and value to the chapter. How do you demonstrate loyalty? Probably by doing what's asked of you. Now doesn't that mean that we're basing your acceptance into the organization on whether you follow orders? Again, aren't you denying them membership because they didn't do enough "somethings?"

Sorry, long post... i tend to ramble at late night hours. And also... i may not make sense in some areas too haha

I am a big advocate of No Hazing policies. But I firmly believe that these policies need to be more specific, as under the current rules, it seems that asking a pledge to do anything (not even telling or ordering) could be in some way related to hazing.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by rbwrath

But once you force them out of your organization for not doing something, isn't that hazing?

Yes. People always say no one's forced to do anything but if that person can't be a member in good standing without the extracurriculars then the "free will" is very limited.

New member candidates are only required to do those things that are explicit in the membership intake/new member documents.

[N2]

Its been a long time since I've been here. Some things never change, including my fraternity chapter.

Delt Alum and Tom Earp, you guys are still posting here every day? WOW. If you gave this much to your chapter, image where it would be?

Here's the short line. Don't listen to all the Politically Correct (PC) BS your hearing here. A fraternity chapter operated correctly is a beautiful thing.

Below are copies of many for my post from the past. I want you all to know that NOTHING has changed, contrary to many here who have blasted me in he past.

HAZING done correctly has a purpose and is a useful tool. Treat it as that , a tool. Never allow it to be an amusement. If it is, stop it NOW!

Read on, I hope there are some useful concepts that follow.

SIMPER FI


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I agree with Gaspard. Most of you all have NO idea what REAL Brotherhood is or can be. You cannot take complete strangers and make he best lifelong friendships in 8-10 weeks without calculated induced stress. Look at the people that have gone to war together, they have some of the strongest bonds there are in life. Someone earlier, in another thread suggested that the Brotherhood in their chapter was like a marriage. I agree, its what I am accustomed too. Brotherhood in my chapter is just like that. It's a life long bond that takes precedent too everything else you do in life. My wife married me, but she also married my Fraternity. My Fraternity Brothers are now her brother-in-laws. It was a condition of our relationship. If your brotherhood is not this deep, then you have NO idea what we are talking about. You cannot explain the ocean to someone who has never seen it.
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"Their bond is formed in their attempt to achieve this cause."

That is my point exactly! A heightened level of Brotherhood is created during the struggle. Many of the methods that my chapter uses have roots in the military, however I am not comparing it with going to war. It is a parallel, cause and effect. While war has a very different struggle, it is my contention that it is the struggle that creates those bonds. Not happy face meetings that stink of political correctness. Many GLO's cannot even call it pledging anymore. We have never, in over 30 years (in my chapter), harmed a pledge. We have never had any physical abuse. We have never had any alcohol present during any educational activity. Everything that we do to or with a pledge class has a lesson. Yes, during my pledge period there were times when I though the world was ending. Every time we thought we hit bottom, we would be taken a little deeper. Deeper than any of us thought we would or could ever go. When it was over, it was not down that we were going, but deeper into a Brotherhood that few will ever know.

Do you have any secrets from your brothers? Answer truthfully. I do not. Brotherhood is where I can go to have any wound healed. It is a very special place, not like any other I have been too. Certainly it is the reason that I feel so strongly about my Brothers, my Chapter, and my chosen way of Life.

I do not degrade you for the way your chapter chooses to operate. My point here is that some GLO's are still doing it the way its always been and doing so successfully. I also realize that there are those that will say that we should not exist anymore if we cannot conform to there ways. If we did conform, we would not exist.
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KSIGTAZ,

Winning is everything. They spend enormous amounts of money too erect scoreboards.
If it does not matter who wins, why keep the score. I’m not limiting it to the field either.
While you are at work, home, your credit report, your 401k, GPA, or the level of your education. It is all a score and it’s competitive. Winning is a habit! So is loosing. My statement goes to the attitude we are striving to recruit. My Fraternity is not for everyone, probably not for most and never will be. As I said in a previous post, my chapter places many hours in the decision even to issue a bid. We spend 3-4 hours a night for a week in committee and then 12-16 hours in lockdown on the final day until the decisions are made. Generally, we bid 25 to 40% of those requesting. We operate in an open system. My chapter could not exist in a closed bidding system. I believe that the closed bidding system limits the natural selection of the perspectives’ as well as the chapters. I understand the purpose of it, I just do not agree with it. It is similar to affirmative action.

As too seeing my Brothers, I did not say pledge Brothers, I said “I would die for my Brothers still today, many of whom I have not seen in years.” I stand by this. Since I pledged there have been 397 brothers. I do not see them all every year. I do see most of the actives from my undergrad years, every year. Our alumni do not just walk away into the sunset. They mentor the new Brothers during their undergraduate career and support the pledges during their “education”. Being a Brother in my chapter is a lifelong commitment. Since 1986, NO brother of my chapter has had to withdraw from college purely for financial reasons. Our alumni will never again allow an undergrad Brother to fall by the wayside. Today, we have 17 Brothers in tuition repayment and 2 actives on tuition subsidy. To this day, I still turn to my mentors for advice and guidance. Yes, there are those who fail to live up to the expectations and they are dealt with harshly. Even in a traditional family there are black sheep. If you fail too trim the fat, you get lazy and sloppy. The scoreboard is still running.

No, I do not believe that you can explain the ocean to someone who has never seen it. It is just an analogy. I cannot completely explain my experiences and expectations of brotherhood to you or anyone else. Brotherhood in my chapter is more than a word. It has to become part of your soul. My chapter over the years has been very successful in maintaining the standards that the Alumni demand. A large part of the success is due the mentoring programs that were instituted prior to my pledge period. The vision of my chapter fathers has proven to be crystal. One of my duties is to evaluate the pledge period. After initiation, I sit down with every new Brother and discuss his impressions, views, lessons, and experiences. Then I meet them as a group and discuss their newfound view of Brotherhood. I mentioned in another post that they all shed tears when recalling their pledge period and I got blasted from someone for making a pledge cry. They are tears of joy, Brotherhood and love, not of fear. We have changed some of the things we do over the years, but not much. If a tactic does not produce the desired response then we alter or change it. Everything we do during our pledge period is scripted for purpose. A new Brother is not allowed to take part in “education” of pledges his first term as a active. He simply observes. The second time he is allowed to participate, but not Lead and must have a senior Brother with him at all times. Only certain Brothers may Lead, they earn the title and must maintain it. No “education” may take place without a Lead. This accountability and mentoring is what stabilizes my chapter. I see wild swings in other chapters on my college’s campus. Their personalities over the years swings the full scale and sometimes returns. Others never have. The personality of my chapter slides very little.
You said, “I don't share the level your accustomed to, I surpass it and everyday I strive to improve upon that.”
I agree that we don’t share the same level of Brotherhood. We probably don’t even share the same definition of “Brotherhood” and that’s fine. I don’t degrade you for your beliefs and if you truly strive to improve it, then I congratulate you.
I have but one life to live, one life to give, and one score to keep.
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Andrew,

You are correct. You can search this site for my previous post to place my comments in context. My chapter is at a mid-sized private university. Our pledge period is virtually unchanged in 30+ years. Our reputation on campus is that our pledge period is a "bitch", and it is. Of course its behind closed doors now, but the word gets out each and every year. We do nothing to dispute the rumors, by design, while admitting nothing. The result is that those who are looking for a free ride don't even bother to get involved. The line to get in our door is always fairly long. We usually only pledge 40% or so of those requesting bids. The bottom line is that by allowing the rumors to persist and the fact that it is known the we are very selective, we attract the very best.



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LiL_G wrote "I like the part about the brothers destroying stereos and computers that belong to the pledges, I'd like to see that N2 guy talk shit about how that increases brotherhood."

I have never posted anything even close to condoning that type of behavior. I am very sorry to learn that a chapter of any Fraternity has lost their charter. This situation has many lesions to be learned. I am going to ask our Alumni Risk manager to use this as a case study with my Chapter. I would bet that my assessment of blame would differ greatly with many that post on this board.

I can’t get into too much detail, but if this had happened in my Chapter there would have been many interventions. A Brother or pledge involved in any negative situation that becomes public, either in print or television, automatically goes before the Alumni Board. Just as the actives hold the key to a pledges future as a Brother, our Alumni Brothers hold the keys to what we view as the ultimate goal of Brotherhood, the “Alumni Brother”(we call it something different, but that’s basically what it is). You see, in my Fraternity, the active Brother is not the ultimate goal.

It is obvious to those who read these boards that I am an avid supporter of hazing. I’m not sure that the full message is getting through. I do not condone physical contact with pledges. I do not condone destruction of property. I do not condone behavior unbecoming of a Brother. I know that hazing is both against the law and what my Nationals state. We accept this disparity and operate our intake system as our Chapter forefathers had intended. It has worked so very well for us for decades and will continue to do so. We also accept the risk associated with this program because it is overwhelmingly outweighed by the rewards we reap. If we changed to the mainstream, the dedication and beliefs that our Brotherhood is founded on would cease to exist. I first posted on this board to point out that there are still chapters that do not bend over for the politically correct. Just as in life, everything must be weighed. Risk vs. Reward.

Back to the top. Who’s at fault here? I say it’s the Alumni. If this had happened in my Chapter, the blame would have fallen on our shoulders, the Alumni Board. I am not saying that my Chapter does not have issues, we do, almost every semester. But we have the lines of authority to deal with these issues quickly and harshly, if needed. In my Chapter, Brotherhood has to be in your soul, but the Chapter is the keeper. It’s a synergy, “The total is greater than the sum of its parts”. In other words, “No one Brother is more important than the Chapter.”

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Lil_G,

You can achieve this!!!!! That’s my point. But it all starts with the kind of Brotherhood you have in your Chapter and how you create it. Yes, you must create it. It does not just happen. Remember, we are talking about 17-19 year olds who are away from their parents, probably, for the first time in their lives. They are very impressionable. It is that imprint that you, as the Brother, leave on him that guides these later decisions. The decisions that you make as a Brother are based on what? I am now old enough that many of the active Brothers’ fathers(paternal) have become my friends. I now have that additional perspective to place into the equation. I have never heard a derogatory remark from a parent. I have had quite a few absolutely astonished parents offer us their other children to polish off. To me, that is the ultimate complement. It does not go unnoticed to the pledges and new Brothers when parents notice change and the maturation. No system is perfect, ours certainly is not, but were working on it. You should be also. I wish I could lay it out for you, but as you know, I can’t. I believe that my Chapters bonds and Brotherhood is second to none. But my opinion is biased. I also believe that your or any other Chapter of any Fraternity could also have it. It takes an absolute dedication to the principles and ideals of the Chapter. Also, like I said in a previous post, it takes the "intestinal fortitude" too make the hard decisions. Every Fraternity or traditional families have "Black Sheep", and you must trim the fat or you get lazy and sloppy. We take no pride in censoring a Brother, but sometimes it must be done for the good of the whole. Those Chapters that do not or can not do it pay the price. Unfortunately, they also reflect negatively on my Fraternity, my Chapter, my belief in Brotherhood, my Brothers and me as a member of a GLO.
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shadokat,

That is mostly true. However, we do not shed a bad light on our Nationals in a public way. If we do ever lose the self discipline as a Chapter and cause our National Fraternity to be criticized, then we will pay and justly so. Yes, we are taking liberties that some might say we should not. Are we being pompous and arrogant in our ways? Maybe. Are we putting our Chapters' charter at risk? Definitely. Are we putting our National Fraternity at risk? No. Are we risking the possibility that there could be bad publicity shed on the National at some point in the future? Yes. Where does that leave us? Its a matter of your perspective. If we followed the letter of the rules and the hazing laws, our chapter would cease too exist.

All of this no hazing, dry house, third party servers bullsh*t is a product of insurance companies. I believe that a few Fraternities nationals truly try to in-force the no hazing rules to the letter, mine does not. While by the letter it is against the rules, it goes with a wink. Also, by the letter of the law, it is illegal. It is also illegal, by the letter of the law, to have oral sex in the State of Georgia and to wear one pant leg inside your boot in the State of Texas if you don't own a 100,000 head of cattle. It is pretty much a Blue law, until you screw up and hurt someone. The solution in our case is to never place a pledge in harms way. Of course, our pledges don't know this. Our pledge program is very regimented. It is scripted too the letter. There is NEVER any freelancing.

Anyway, the bottom line is that we do take liberties that many would say are not ours too take. We do understand the risk. We accept the risk to preserve our ways. The reason is simple, the reward outweighs the risk. The level of commitment to Brotherhood in my Chapter is unparalleled in anything that I have ever seen.

Do you know the difference between involvement and commitment? It is a parallel relationship to a ham and egg breakfast. The chicken was involved.......................................... ...the pig was committed.
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Billy,

I guess I've been away a while. I can't give you the specifics. You can look up the definition of hazing. Almost everything we do falls into hazing. NEVER physical or alcohol involved. The process has 3 phases. Breakdown, education, and build up. In the first phase the pledge can do nothing correct. Most of their social habits are broken. We change everything from the way they dress, hairstyle, eat, wipe their ass, ect. As time goes on they have less and less time to spend on outside interest and friendships. Almost all of our DE-pledges come in this phase. For the ones that stay, this is the point that they give up being an individual. They identify their success' and failures' with that of the pledge class. During education they learn all they need to know about acceptable behavior, the Fraternity, Brotherhood, ect. The build up is the most fascinating. The pledge class is placed into situations that they can deal with and succeed on a regular basis. The task become more difficult and much more personal as time goes on. Finally, they get to the point where the pledge class needs the Brothers to succeed, and the Brothers produce. When they get to the level that they are not hesitant or embarrassed by anything, they are ready to begin initiation week.
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Lil_G,

We have lost pledges, mostly in the first few weeks. We try very hard not to isolate anyone that DE-pledges. The brothers go out of their way to be friendly with them. We did issue them a bid because they do posses redeeming qualities. Luckily, we have never had an ex-pledge go out of his way to expose what we do. I am sure it will happen one day. The real risk is a late pledge period Black Ball.

Any 30+ year Alumni would recognize our pledge period as his. It has not changed much. One of our highest ideals is tradition. Violating it in my Chapter can be a fatal sin. I believe that this commitment to tradition was a fundamental element to our foundation and a leading contributor to our successes. In my Chapter you reach the summit of Brotherhood as an Alumni Brother, not as an active. The active Chapter answers to the Alumni in a similar manner as the pledges answer to the Brothers. I have seen other Chapters that have strayed because they have initiated a few strong wildcats that get in and start changing things for the worse. It can't happen in my house.

[GDIfly]

Originally Posted by N2

The process has 3 phases. Breakdown, education, and build up. In the first phase the pledge can do nothing correct. Most of their social habits are broken. We change everything from the way they dress, hairstyle, eat, wipe their ass, ect. As time goes on they have less and less time to spend on outside interest and friendships. Almost all of our DE-pledges come in this phase. For the ones that stay, this is the point that they give up being an individual. They identify their success' and failures' with that of the pledge class. During education they learn all they need to know about acceptable behavior, the Fraternity, Brotherhood, ect. The build up is the most fascinating. The pledge class is placed into situations that they can deal with and succeed on a regular basis. The task become more difficult and much more personal as time goes on. Finally, they get to the point where the pledge class needs the Brothers to succeed, and the Brothers produce. When they get to the level that they are not hesitant or embarrassed by anything, they are ready to begin initiation week.

This sounds like brainwashing people into a cult, not a brotherhood.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by N2

Delt Alum and Tom Earp, you guys are still posting here every day? WOW. If you gave this much to your chapter, image where it would be?

Dear friend.

You have no idea how much Tom and I may give to our chapter. If we choose to spend some of our spare time on this board, what is that to you?

My initiating chapter happens to be over 1200 miles away, so I chose to serve the Fraternity as well as chapter -- doing that as a divisional officer and chapter advisor. Brotherhood doesn't stop at your chapter house door.

As for recognizing a chapters pledge period as the same as one we had thirty years ago, I'm not so sure that would be a good thing.

We did a fair amount of stupid stuff and were lucky that the consequences never caught up with us.

Has it occurred to you that we just may know more about hazing than most simply because of the era in which we entered the Greek System, and the work we have done for our organizations since that time? It is what I've learned over the years that has convinced me that hazing must end.

It isn't Political Correctness, it's preservation.

[Kevin]

DA, it's tough to convince anyone of that until it's too late. If a chapter is hazing and exposing pledges to unacceptable risks, eventually, it'll catch up.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

It isn't Political Correctness, it's preservation.

What an excellent way to put this, DA! I think this is precisely the concept that is difficult for some to grasp.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Dear friend.

You have no idea how much Tom and I may give to our chapter. If we choose to spend some of our spare time on this board, what is that to you?

My initiating chapter happens to be over 1200 miles away, so I chose to serve the Fraternity as well as chapter -- doing that as a divisional officer and chapter advisor. Brotherhood doesn't stop at your chapter house door.

As for recognizing a chapters pledge period as the same as one we had thirty years ago, I'm not so sure that would be a good thing.

We did a fair amount of stupid stuff and were lucky that the consequences never caught up with us.

Has it occurred to you that we just may know more about hazing than most simply because of the era in which we entered the Greek System, and the work we have done for our organizations since that time? It is what I've learned over the years that has convinced me that hazing must end.

It isn't Political Correctness, it's preservation.

Very well said and put.

[GIJANE]

Originally Posted by Iota ED

The way I see it is, Anything worth having is worth fighting for. If I didnt have to work so hard to get my letters, Im quite positive that I wouldnt have as much love for my Org that I do. Im a member of Iota Phi Theta Fraternity, Inc. by the way.

I understand what you mean by working hard equating to taking whatever was dished out to your by your big brothers at the time of your hazing, I mean pledge process. However, everyone is not equipped nor will they tolerate that type of treatment. I was in the active duty Army and I went through Basic Training and I disagree with the earlier comments that you are not supposed to be hazed or you aren't hazed during this time...cause you are! I appreciate that hazing because it helped me to combat any fear I may have had about handling a weapon, throwing grenades, being gassed, etc...because when that drill sgt is yelling at you for dropping a dummy grenade or snatches you up for it, then you know when you have the real thing in your hands that this is serious and you can kill yourself and everyone else if you accidentally drop it. While pledging is not supposed to be life threatening, you are there to learn history and gain an appreciation for the orgainization and if you are slacking then a little firm talking to won't kill you or ruin your self-esteem. It will make you remember what you need to know the next time you are asked by your big brother or sister...

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by GIJANE

While pledging is not supposed to be life threatening, you are there to learn history and gain an appreciation for the orgainization...

One can learn history and gain an appreciation for the organization without being hazed. And you're right - pledging is not supposed to be life threatening. By adding (some) hazing methods to the mix, it can definitely be life threatening.

I appreciate your story about basic training, GIJANE, but pledging a fraternity/sorority, as I'm sure you're aware, is vastly different from preparing for combat. The two really shouldn't be compared.

[LBpc30]

Ive spent some time reading all however many pages that this thread composes on the internet. It is my first post and id like to start off by saying that i am a member of a local fraternity in New England. Being local we set our dues low, but more importantly we are free to set our own process. We have never put a pledges life at risk in any way during Pledging. However some things that we have pledges participate may be legally considered hazing? Do we flat out say during rush that we Haze? no, we tell prospective members that they are expected to work hard for letters and that its not easy.
My personal experience and from what I have seen since becoming a brother is that holding people accountable for there actions is not only the right thing to do to maintain good brotherhood, but is also a duty as members of the greek community as a commitment to excellance. The reason why hazing is looked down upon is that our society as a whole has become to open to failure and excepting those who cannot do and almost rewarding them. People now adays come from differant living enviroments then the fraternity man from the 1980s. people born in the 60's had parents who for the most part disiplined there children and kept them in line. Is hitting your child the best way to maintain order in a family? no.
Does this mean that if your child screws up you should just let them go? as im sure non hazing fraternities have clearly said is how they handle disorderly pledges.

Being in a fraternity is like a family away from home. The older members of the fraternity are the parents and the newer members are the children. The older members teach new members semester after semester how to become good brothers , mostly by holding them accountible for there actions. You dont just kick people out who make a mistake, just like in real life. You need to make sure they deal with there mistakes and you help them realize that making mistakes is part of life. It helps them for the real world. if a pledge is late to an event or forgets something and a brother makes that pledge run a mile on the track are you seriously going to call the police and report me for hazing violations? Hazing has come from hitting and dangerous things to basicly include everything.

Im sorry to inform you that being hazed, as a legal term, is a part of life. The sooner you realise this the easier it becomes to haze because you are really doing your new members a valueable service. The members go on to lead normal lives being productive employees and owners and political figures. Thats why greeks have been so successful in the past. we as a whole train people for real life.