Israel at War?

[DeltAlum]

It's funny. I wrote the following yesterday morning but decided not to post it because it doesn't really have anything to do with Israel at war -- the topic of this thread. For some reason, I decided to save it which I've never done before.

Then I watched national news last night and the testimony of Secretary McNamara and several top generals who basically re-enforced my thoughts and worries.

So, since the thread has been pretty much hijacked already, I guess I'll post it after all:

Well, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but here's what I think.

Think. Remember that word.

I think the administration blatantly lied.

I don't see a clear exit strategy.

I think it's possible that, with the exception of getting rid of Sadaam, we may leave Iraq is worse shape than when we entered.

The infrastructure still doesn't work. Hundreds of non-combatant people are being killed per week. Terror is rampant.

I believe that our top officials want the world to look like us -- or like they want it to look.

Some round pegs will never fit in square holes. Not every country is ready for democracy. Some may never be.

I don't understand why we don't see that.

I see top level officials who think they can do pretty much anything they want with impunity.

I think that our leaders expect us to accept everything they say as fact and attack those who disagree as unpatriotic.

When things go wrong, blame the media. It's easier than fixing the mistakes.

I worry that some of our liberties and freedoms are being trampled.

We've seen government reports of State Department agencies and contractors like Halliburton misusing funds and lying. I think those things will be proven and we will see more of them.

Graft and war seem to go hand-in-hand.

If Iraq isn't in civil war -- it's damned close. The place is out of control and the government can't do a thing about it.

Nor can we, it seems.

I think it will be a long time before the Iraqi government/security forces are ready to take over from us. I mean years. If ever.

I see a lot of parallels from the Vietnam experience -- but I said that a long time ago. At least there aren't as many U.S. casualties. Thankfully.

As it was in Southeast Asia, I see our military, for the most part, performing brilliantly -- but the professional officers being ignored by politicians. The grunts get the brunt of it. It's the privates and corporals and sergeants that mostly get killed and maimed.

I think we will see the split in the country over these issues widening the longer the conflict continues.

What bothers me most, is that I've felt all of these frustrations before and I had hoped we had learned from them.

I don't think we did. Deja Vu all over again.

Well, those are some of the things I think. I could be wrong, but they say that history repeats itself.

I think it's doing just that.

20/20 hindsight.

Yes. I'm frustrated.

How did you guess?

[Rudey]

After a century of being taught hate and ignorance, becoming nothing more than idiots who play with sand and bombs, it was stupid of us (including me) to think that they should have any right to self-determination through democracy.

We should have bombed the shit out of Saddam and Syria and gone home. There's no reason to spend time there anymore. I too am frustrated over this.

-Rudey

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

It's funny. I wrote the following yesterday morning but decided not to post it because it doesn't really have anything to do with Israel at war -- the topic of this thread. For some reason, I decided to save it which I've never done before.

Then I watched national news last night and the testimony of Secretary McNamara and several top generals who basically re-enforced my thoughts and worries.

So, since the thread has been pretty much hijacked already, I guess I'll post it after all:

Well, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but here's what I think.

Think. Remember that word.

I think the administration blatantly lied.

I don't see a clear exit strategy.

I think it's possible that, with the exception of getting rid of Sadaam, we may leave Iraq is worse shape than when we entered.

The infrastructure still doesn't work. Hundreds of non-combatant people are being killed per week. Terror is rampant.

I believe that our top officials want the world to look like us -- or like they want it to look.

Some round pegs will never fit in square holes. Not every country is ready for democracy. Some may never be.

I don't understand why we don't see that.

I see top level officials who think they can do pretty much anything they want with impunity.

I think that our leaders expect us to accept everything they say as fact and attack those who disagree as unpatriotic.

When things go wrong, blame the media. It's easier than fixing the mistakes.

I worry that some of our liberties and freedoms are being trampled.

We've seen government reports of State Department agencies and contractors like Halliburton misusing funds and lying. I think those things will be proven and we will see more of them.

Graft and war seem to go hand-in-hand.

If Iraq isn't in civil war -- it's damned close. The place is out of control and the government can't do a thing about it.

Nor can we, it seems.

I think it will be a long time before the Iraqi government/security forces are ready to take over from us. I mean years. If ever.

I see a lot of parallels from the Vietnam experience -- but I said that a long time ago. At least there aren't as many U.S. casualties. Thankfully.

As it was in Southeast Asia, I see our military, for the most part, performing brilliantly -- but the professional officers being ignored by politicians. The grunts get the brunt of it. It's the privates and corporals and sergeants that mostly get killed and maimed.

I think we will see the split in the country over these issues widening the longer the conflict continues.

What bothers me most, is that I've felt all of these frustrations before and I had hoped we had learned from them.

I don't think we did. Deja Vu all over again.

Well, those are some of the things I think. I could be wrong, but they say that history repeats itself.

I think it's doing just that.

20/20 hindsight.

Yes. I'm frustrated.

How did you guess?

[RU OX Alum]

I think a Federal styled republic would have worked better than the direct parliment we set up. Too late now.

I agree with Rudy. We should protect our own freedoms, not risk our lives trying to give freedom to people who for the most part act like they don't want it or want us there telling them how to do it. Bomb Syria/Iran and get the hell out. I think that's the best exit strategy I've heard for this. I'm serious.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Bomb Syria/Iran and get the hell out.

Why?

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Why?

Because we don't need to be giving out charity. Let France do that. We need to be defending ourselves and our interests and killing some terrorist leaders with a bomb is easier than going in and helping rebuild a country where people are willing to die for virgins.

-Rudey

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Because we don't need to be giving out charity. Let France do that. We need to be defending ourselves and our interests and killing some terrorist leaders with a bomb is easier than going in and helping rebuild a country where people are willing to die for virgins.

-Rudey

At least you're being honest and upfront (check bolded quote), but this current (and thankfully not for long) president and his minions are not i.e. WMD (what was that again? seems like a distant memory). If you take out the gov't of a country, you also make the people living that country worse off than before i.e. the civil war brewing in Iraq. And as the democratic country, U.S. cannot afford to look bad in front of its own citizens and international communityby "bombing" the hell out of countries just for the heck of it.

PS: I seriously don't get where people get the whole "virgins" in heaven thing from. There's no such as virgins waiting in heaven, and real muslims know that.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

At least you're being honest and upfront (check bolded quote), but this current (and thankfully not for long) president and his minions are not i.e. WMD (what was that again? seems like a distant memory). If you take out the gov't of a country, you also make the people living that country worse off than before i.e. the civil war brewing in Iraq. And as the democratic country, U.S. cannot afford to look bad in front of its own citizens and international communityby "bombing" the hell out of countries just for the heck of it.

PS: I seriously don't get where people get the whole "virgins" in heaven thing from. There's no such as virgins waiting in heaven, and real muslims know that.

I've read that the quote they are referring to is about white raisins which used to be valuable a long time ago. Somehow it was misinterpreted and there was a controversy when a Muslim scholar said it was about raisins and I think the Saudis did something to shut him up. I can't remember the article I read that in but it was interesting.

We should be caring about our interests. I'd love to know what country out there doesn't do that. At some point the hope is that our interests align with other people's interests but whether they do or not is irrelevant if I can live my life happily.

-Rudey

[RU OX Alum]

we should bomb syria and iran, not willy nilly, in specific places, and help the revolutionary movements in those countries. Well, in iran it is not called revolutionary because the people in power from the old (islamic) revolution are oppresing those who work for democracy, not declaring war on people, etc.

syria should be liberated, but everytime we liberate some where that needs it, it comes back to bite us in the ass. So we drop a few bombs and say good luck to the good guys, good riddance to the rest, and then get the heck out of there.

[DeltAlum]

Reminds me of a great Tom Clancy line -- don't remember which book -- which was something like, "Bomb that place into a parking lot and send in the Marines to paint lines."

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by Rudey

At some point the hope is that our interests align with other people's interests but whether they do or not is irrelevant if I can live my life happily.

-Rudey

I don't know about you, but I can't live comfortably in a country that makes thousands (if not millions) of people suffer or die. I guess we're built differently.

[shinerbock]

Opi, I feel you're misguided. While OUR interests should be the adminstrations top priority, I don't know what you're referring to regarding the millions of deaths caused by the administration. You mentioned the "civil war" in Iraq as an example of how we are trying to a destroy a country we can't overtake. This is simply absurd. Our servicemen are dying for this cause, we're spending billions on it, and our President is taking a serious hit in the public for it. He is obviously not simply looking to kill a bunch of people, he has a serious and obvious motive, a free Iraq. To say that this effort is worthless is beyond ridiculous. There have been extensive successes in Iraq, ask a soldier. They have elected government officials. They country is fighting for its life right now, and if you don't believe me, you're wrong. If you think what we're doing is pointless, you might wanna look at the thousands of Iraqi's fighting with the Americans against the insurgents. Do you think they're doing it simply because they want civil war? They're doing it because they have had a taste of freedom and want a stable and free Iraq. In regards to your WMD comment, which is a ridiculous talking point you hear little of from the left these days (I wonder why, perhaps because we've found UN banned weapons?). I would advise everyone who hates Bush because of Iraq to read Bush at War by Bob Woodward. Woodward, by no means a Bush fan, details the process the White House went through before going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. It might open your eyes to those who thought we did it for oil or revenge for the plot against Bush Sr.

Again, your statements about "bombing the hell" out of countries is just inaccurate. We aren't doing it, Israel isn't doing it. We are both fighting against a people (terrorists), who seek to destroy us and our way of life. They do not only view Israelis as their enemy, but as a subhuman race of people. This is a group of people who will show outrage at a CARTOON in Europe, but won't blink an eye over walking into a mall and blowing up a group of Israeli women and children. They simply have no respect for human life.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Opi, I feel you're misguided.

I love this line.

While OUR interests should be the adminstrations top priority, I don't know what you're referring to regarding the millions of deaths caused by the administration. You mentioned the "civil war" in Iraq as an example of how we are trying to a destroy a country we can't overtake. This is simply absurd.

It's not they they caused the deaths per se, more like they give aid and support to countries/militants that do (and I'm not just talking about the ME). With Iraq, the point was to liberate and get the F out, right? Well, I guess it didn't work out so hot, and look what's happening to the country.

Our servicemen are dying for this cause, we're spending billions on it, and our President is taking a serious hit in the public for it. He is obviously not simply looking to kill a bunch of people, he has a serious and obvious motive, a free Iraq.

I agree that the soldiers do not need to be there...they shouldn't be there to begin with. as for the bolded text, I didn't know you were such a comedian. lol.

In regards to your WMD comment, which is a ridiculous talking point you hear little of from the left these days (I wonder why, perhaps because we've found UN banned weapons?). I would advise everyone who hates Bush because of Iraq to read Bush at War by Bob Woodward. Woodward, by no means a Bush fan, details the process the White House went through before going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. It might open your eyes to those who thought we did it for oil or revenge for the plot against Bush Sr.

First, WMD's was the main objective for taking out Saddam. Second, I don't hate Bush, per se. Third, I don't completely agree with the left or right.

[shinerbock]

Sorry, its hard to debate people who honestly think Bush's entire motive is to kill Iraqi citizens. I mean, maybe if your ridiculous leftist idea was that the war was for oil, we could do something here.

Our goal is to liberate. We have not done this. That is why we're still there.

WMD was not the entire motive for going to war, like I said, read Woodward's book. He makes the point that Bush originally had several points, and that the media kept trying to get him to proclaim a central one. WMD was a big point, and there was intelligence which led us to believe they had them. We had scientists from Iraq telling us they did. We had the SCUDS they sent into Tel Aviv. Bush wasn't sitting around the Oval making this stuff up.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Our goal is to liberate.

No this was what they told the citizens to win their confidence. I don't think that was their real objective to begin with.

[shinerbock]

Well you can think what you want, but given that you have no insight into the administration, I'll assume what they're claiming is their actual goal.