Arizona governor signs immigration bill

[Drolefille]

My friends lived here their whole lives, and they're only an example. We as a nation have historically and presently encouraged immigration and removing the right of citizenship to individuals born here discourages naturalization and encourages legal immigrants to return home, taking money and education with them. It would have been a bad idea in the past, it's a bad idea now.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

In a perfect world, yes. Citizenship by fraud is way too common but because of Jus Solis anyone born here is a citizen and cannot be deported.


It's no more difficult for an Asian to immigrate here than it is for a South American. Yes, it does cost money to immigrate but we don't charge certain ethnicities more than others. I'd actually say Mexicans have the advantage over others when it comes to immigration because they can just say hell to the Visas and inspections and sneak over.

I fail to see how fraud is related to the rights of children born in this country. They didn't commit fraudulent acts.

We charge a hell of a lot of money to everyone.

Originally Posted by epchick

Actually that is definitely NOT true. I don't know about South Americans, but it is very difficult for Mexicans to immigrate here legally, which is why they chose to cross illegally.

Why should they wait 5-10 years (if they are lucky) to get a Visa, when they can just hop the fence? If the US wants to really calm the influx of immigrants, then maybe they should start assisting with the Visa process, instead of letting the corrupt Mexican government handle it.

The last numbers I heard, even if you are in the US and you want to bring your family in, you're looking at 15+ years. And that's supposed to be the easiest part of the immigration process.

Currently individuals from Mexico are not even eligible for the random lottery which is only 55k visas per year.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Do you honestly even know that to be true? What proof do you have that Mexicans end up waiting longer than any other Nationality to get issued a Visa? Just because you know a few Mexicans that have been waiting for their Visa doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is getting right on in. For every Mexican waiting their is an African, European, Asian waiting as well.

To get into the US on a Visa you a) are brought in by a family member, there is a long ass line
b) are highly skilled in some field, being a doctor, a scientist, an engineer, particular professions that are highly desired, this requires a job offer from an employer*
c) you sign up for the lottery (individuals from certain countries need not apply)
d) you're a refugee (but only so many of you get in)
e) tiny numbers of very specialized other cases including non-clergy religious etc.

*there are 10k "Unskilled labor" positions available, of which no more than 7% of the total - 700 - can go to one single country. This includes any dependents that the individual may bring. So what, 200 unskilled Mexican laborers per year? Maybe? Assuming a family size of 3.

This shows the back logs for the types of Visas, the feds don't even report the unskilled backlog. Permanent Resident Card

More resources for you: How hard is it to immigrate?
How long does it take to get a green card

TL,DR: If you don't have a job, a family member who's a citizen or have 500k to drop, you're SOL

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

removing the right of citizenship to individuals born here discourages naturalization and encourages legal immigrants to return home, taking money and education with them. It would have been a bad idea in the past, it's a bad idea now.


The last numbers I heard, even if you are in the US and you want to bring your family in, you're looking at 15+ years. And that's supposed to be the easiest part of the immigration process.

Currently individuals from Mexico are not even eligible for the random lottery which is only 55k visas per year.

I don't see how this proposed law would encourage legal immigrants to return home when it doesn't affect them. AFAIK these proposed changes to the Jus Soli laws only affects children born to illegal immigrants. If you're here legally and have a child, that child will be a citizen.

For the 15+ years to get your family in, I'm not sure where you got that number but it's an either an exaggeration or you are talking about extreme cases. A buddy of mine just got his wife over and it took him about 5 months, and people who adopt overseas don't spend 15 years for their adopted baby to come over. Some petitions do get revoked because of legal issues such as prior deportation of said family member ( if you are deported you are banned from re- entering for a certain amount of time), which if thats the case then yes, it can take up to 15 years.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

To get into the US on a Visa you a) are brought in by a family member, there is a long ass line
b) are highly skilled in some field, being a doctor, a scientist, an engineer, particular professions that are highly desired, this requires a job offer from an employer*
c) you sign up for the lottery (individuals from certain countries need not apply)
d) you're a refugee (but only so many of you get in)
e) tiny numbers of very specialized other cases including non-clergy religious etc.

*there are 10k "Unskilled labor" positions available, of which no more than 7% of the total - 700 - can go to one single country. This includes any dependents that the individual may bring. So what, 200 unskilled Mexican laborers per year? Maybe? Assuming a family size of 3.

This shows the back logs for the types of Visas, the feds don't even report the unskilled backlog. Permanent Resident Card

More resources for you: How hard is it to immigrate?
How long does it take to get a green card

TL,DR: If you don't have a job, a family member who's a citizen or have 500k to drop, you're SOL

I know about general Visa requirements, I wanted to see where it says that it's harder for a Mexican than a Somalian, Brazilian, Saudi, German, Indian, etc to immigrate to the U.S.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I know about general Visa requirements, I wanted to see where it says that it's harder for a Mexican than a Somalian, Brazilian, Saudi, German, Indian, etc to immigrate to the U.S.

I've laid out all the reasons right there, there aren't country quotas anymore, but take a poor country with low education and high population, 5-10 year backlog (per the feds themselves, I'm happy for your buddy but it's rarely that easy) on family visas for anyone other than the spouse of a citizen, and prohibition from joining the random lottery and there's every reason in the world to jump the very very long line if you can since they usually do find work here.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I've laid out all the reasons right there, there aren't country quotas anymore, but take a poor country with low education and high population, 5-10 year backlog (per the feds themselves, I'm happy for your buddy but it's rarely that easy) on family visas for anyone other than the spouse of a citizen, and prohibition from joining the random lottery and there's every reason in the world to jump the very very long line if you can since they usually do find work here.

What would you like to see happen? Would you like the U.S. to be the only industrialized nation in the world with no immigration laws?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

What would you like to see happen? Would you like the U.S. to be the only industrialized nation in the world with no immigration laws?

Don't go to the absurd.

I think it should be easier to immigrate the US legally.

Whether that means removing control of access to visas from corruption in other countries, removing the 7% limit, decreasing the cost, processing the backlog or all of the above, I don't know. I do know the current system promotes illegal immigration and I do believe that making immigration MORE difficult is the wrong way to go.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Do you honestly even know that to be true? What proof do you have that Mexicans end up waiting longer than any other Nationality to get issued a Visa?

Because i've seen it with my own eyes. I've tried to help people get their visas, written letters to the consulate where these particular people live and yet they've STILL been denied. I've witnessed others just walk in and ask for a Visa and they are handed one automatically.

I lived in a dorm of 200+ Asians, all from different countries and they all spoke about how easy it was for them to get a visa, and go back and forth between the US and their home country.

So really, don't try and implicate that I have no idea what it's like.

[Alumiyum]

I know of two Mexicans that came over on student visas and stayed after being sponsored after college, but both of them seemed to have a pretty hard time even after getting sponsored getting their paper work through. I know several people from western European countries that seemed to get their visa much faster and with much less difficulty. Some came with student visas and some with work visas.

I also know illegal European immigrants, specifically from the UK and Germany. It's definitely not just Mexicans.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Don't go to the absurd.

I think it should be easier to immigrate the US legally.

Whether that means removing control of access to visas from corruption in other countries, removing the 7% limit, decreasing the cost, processing the backlog or all of the above, I don't know. I do know the current system promotes illegal immigration and I do believe that making immigration MORE difficult is the wrong way to go.

Not going the absurd at all, just trying to see where you're coming from. I've heard many people seriously propose open border immigration policy, specifically for Mexico as well as completely sealing off the country and ending immigration completely.

But back to the original discussion do you support this law on the basis that this law would NOT promote illegal immigration, instead, it would most likely deter illegal immigration into the U.S?

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by epchick

Because i've seen it with my own eyes. I've tried to help people get their visas, written letters to the consulate where these particular people live and yet they've STILL been denied. I've witnessed others just walk in and ask for a Visa and they are handed one automatically.

I lived in a dorm of 200+ Asians, all from different countries and they all spoke about how easy it was for them to get a visa, and go back and forth between the US and their home country.

So really, don't try and implicate that I have no idea what it's like.

I really doubt what you say is true, about people just walking in and receiving Visa's from their consulate "automatically" ( Why are you hanging out in Consulates anyway?). It really doesn't work like that and If what your saying IS true than there is some shadiness going on and you should report it to the State Dept IG.

Also, applying for a immigrant or non-immigrant Visa is like applying to a college or rushing a GLO, just because you fill out the paper work doesn't mean you are going to fit the requirements to get in. It's not written anywhere that the U.S. has to take in everyone that applies.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Not going the absurd at all, just trying to see where you're coming from. I've heard many people seriously propose open border immigration policy, specifically for Mexico as well as completely sealing off the country and ending immigration completely.

But back to the original discussion do you support this law on the basis that this law would NOT promote illegal immigration, instead, it would most likely deter illegal immigration into the U.S?

You phrased it in the extreme, that tends to be an attempt to reduce the argument to the absurd.

I'm not sure why you think I would support this law in any way, but you phrased the question in that way.

I do not support this law because it is unconstitutional. I don't support the removal of Jus Soli from our constitution nor the alteration of it under those rules. I do not think it would actually deter illegal immigration either. This is a distraction from productive immigration reform.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I really doubt what you say is true, about people just walking in and receiving Visa's from their consulate "automatically" ( Why are you hanging out in Consulates anyway?). It really doesn't work like that and If what your saying IS true than there is some shadiness going on and you should report it to the State Dept IG.

Also, applying for a immigrant or non-immigrant Visa is like applying to a college or rushing a GLO, just because you fill out the paper work doesn't mean you are going to fit the requirements to get in. It's not written anywhere that the U.S. has to take in everyone that applies.

There's a difference between believing that an individual's story is true and believing that it correlates to the general population. Calling someone a liar is not a productive way to have a conversation.

Applying for a Visa, in some of these countries is more like trying to buy a kidney. There's corruption, bribes, and graft. One person's story was that for just a 30 day visa they were expected to pay 130 dollars a day just to stand in line.

There's a lot wrong with our immigration policy and only if you're from Europe are you unlikely to have serious problems (because it's a much shorter line and your 7% isn't automatically used up). Hell I have a friend marrying an Indian who is hoping that he can become naturalized on his current visa just so they don't have to go through the hell that is ICE verifying your marriage is legit.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I really doubt what you say is true, about people just walking in and receiving Visa's from their consulate "automatically" ( Why are you hanging out in Consulates anyway?)

Dude what the fuck ever. Go ahead and call me a liar, coming from you it doesn't mean much.

Applying for a Visa, in some of these countries is more like trying to buy a kidney. There's corruption, bribes, and graft. One person's story was that for just a 30 day visa they were expected to pay 130 dollars a day just to stand in line.

Exactly.

For a friend of the family, part of the requirement to ask for a work Visa was to get letters from people from the US (i.e. citizens) to vouch for her. So tell me why she had EVERYONE in my dance group vouch for her, yet she wasn't able to get her visa approved(her alone, not even with her family).

YET, when we were standing in line (believe it or not, I actually DO travel to Mexico ) we heard about this couple that just had to pay XX amount and they got their Visa automatically (no waiting, no nothing), and now they were back to get their children visas.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by epchick

Dude what the fuck ever.

LOL.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

You phrased it in the extreme, that tends to be an attempt to reduce the argument to the absurd.

I'm not sure why you think I would support this law in any way, but you phrased the question in that way.

I do not support this law because it is unconstitutional. I don't support the removal of Jus Soli from our constitution nor the alteration of it under those rules. I do not think it would actually deter illegal immigration either. This is a distraction from productive immigration reform.

I think that's up to the SCOTUS to determine if it's unconstitutional. AFAIK the citizenship of offspring of non citizens born here has never been legally challenged. This "anchor baby" bill comes up every year but always dies out as soon as it's presented. People get so worked up and emotional over immigration laws.

You had said that you were against U.S. laws that promote undocumented migration into the U.S., I get that and agree with you. I just wanted to see how you felt about laws that are "anti" illegal immigrant. You seem to be against those as well. Personally, It's not going to change my life if they change it or not. Even though it doesn't affect my personal life, it affects me professionally as I work in the field. I think it would make my job a living hell if this went through nationwide.

I never called anyone a liar, I just said that the system shouldn't work like that. I even said that if what she said was true and free of exaggeration she should report the Consulate and the employees working there.

Immigration reform is already a hot mess, and it's just going to get messier. I think if we are going to see another amnesty, it's going to come with a lot of nasty strings attached, like changes to Jus Soli.