The Confederate Flag

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Cen1aur 1963

So far, this is one of the most interesting, best threads I've seen on here. (since I've been a member).

Indeed.

Most of us have cyber-grown up together. LOL. You should have read us 1 year - 10 years ago. Or see us when we're feeling less interesting and more ass whooping.

[Cen1aur 1963]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Indeed.

Most of us have cyber-grown up together. LOL. You should have read us 1 year - 10 years ago. Or see us when we're feeling less interesting and more ass whooping.

LOL I looked at some of the old threads, and some of the topics were interesting "reads". I wish I would have known about this site back then. Folks on here have some really interesting opinions.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Indeed.

Most of us have cyber-grown up together. LOL. You should have read us 1 year - 10 years ago. Or see us when we're feeling less interesting and more ass whooping.

HAHA.

More ass whooping = recruitment troll threads, lately.

[amIblue?]

Poor whites believed that they were protecting their jobs from "those people" and protecting their own white privileges. That is how political parties, labor unions, etc. were able to develop on the basis of the extremely high correlation between race and social class.

It is this phenomenon that never ceases to amaze me, especially when they assume that I agree with them solely because I am white.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

What does that mean? Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't get it. (and I've understood just about everything in this thread up until now).

There was a propaganda effort by the defeated South after the end of the Civil War. It emphasized the noble, ideological reasons for the war ("State's rights") and downplayed the role of slavery. It also made heroes out of people who should have been hung as war criminals. (Nathan Bedford Forrest, I'm lookin' at you.) That propaganda has a tremendous amount of influence on the way the narrative about the war is constructed today.

[*winter*]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

He does not need to meet all poor whites/poor white farmers to make that statement. Don't take that statement too seriously and assume that it has to apply 100%. He may be talking about the stereotype of rednecks as aggressive and mean and overall ignorant based on bigotry. I disagree with that stereotype but I also do not care whether people are polite to each other. Politeness is not the crux of racism and discrimination.

Poor white farmers (what the derogatory slang "redneck" is based on because the necks were red from working in the land and in the sun) did not have the same role in slavery as the more well off whites. However, slavery and racism would not have/would not persist without poor whites. Poor whites have white privilege which buffers much of the impact of social class inequalities. Poor whites were also instrumental in social exclusion and job discrimination for generations. When the more well-off whites/capitalists needed someone to maintain the class and race hierarchies, poor whites were and still are a vital tool.

Anti-capitalists/economists/conflict theorists who believed that the working class would unite against the capitalists found that poor whites (in general) always preferred racial alliances over social class alliances. Poor whites believed that they were protecting their jobs from "those people" and protecting their own white privileges. That is how political parties, labor unions, etc. were able to develop on the basis of the extremely high correlation between race and social class.

/I love threads with a whole lot of subtopics that are based in the same dynamics

I just wrote this really long response based on our local history here...but apparently the cord came out (yeah, I'm old school like that) and I got knocked offline, so it has now disappeared into cyberspace. Guess I'll try again tomorrow (after I get a wireless router, LOL!)

[VandalSquirrel]

Yesterday on the back window of a truck outside a Target in Washington was a giant, more than a meter wide "Confederate Flag" decal with the text "Bad Ass Girls Drive Bad Ass Toys" above and below it.

Washington didn't even gain statehood until more than 30 years after the end of the Civil War, so it looks even more out of place.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by *winter*

I just wrote this really long response based on our local history here...but apparently the cord came out (yeah, I'm old school like that) and I got knocked offline, so it has now disappeared into cyberspace. Guess I'll try again tomorrow (after I get a wireless router, LOL!)

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

Over the span of time that slavery existed, how many slaves died in transport, were hunted down and killed if they tried to escape, were tortured to death, or died of a variety of diseases as a direct result of their slavery? My guess (non-scientific) is it exceeds the holocaust.

Guess which flag was flying on those ships?

The American flag.

Not the Confederacy. I believe the Confederacy banned the importation of slaves with the ratification of the CSA's constitution.

For the record, I fly the Bonnie Blue. It exhibits Southern Pride to those who love the South and looks like part of the Texas flag to those who have no knowledge of history.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Guess which flag was flying on those ships?

The American flag.

Not the Confederacy. I believe the Confederacy banned the importation of slaves with the ratification of the CSA's constitution.

For the record, I fly the Bonnie Blue. It exhibits Southern Pride to those who love the South and looks like part of the Texas flag to those who have no knowledge of history.

Thank you! I learned something new today.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Guess which flag was flying on those ships?

The American flag.

Not the Confederacy. I believe the Confederacy banned the importation of slaves with the ratification of the CSA's constitution.

For the record, I fly the Bonnie Blue. It exhibits Southern Pride to those who love the South and looks like part of the Texas flag to those who have no knowledge of history.

The legal importation of slaves into the United States of America was banned January 1, 1808 (voted on in 1807), it is found in this little known document called The Constitution, in the same section as some habeas corpus nonsense. People got kind of nervous after the French had some issues in Haiti, Britain had also banned the Atlantic Slave Trade in 1807, but still had slavery until 1834 (Act was in 1833) excluding anything owned/run by the East India Company and what is now Sri Lanka. Spain abolished slavery in 1811, except in Cuba, the now Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico, which didn't happen until the 1880s or during and after the Civil War.


The real importation of slaves didn't stop until later, with the last known ship smuggling people in being the Clotilde in 1859 that brought slaves from Africa to Mobile, Alabama. http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/question/july05/ Slaves were still brought in through New Orleans and Texas (Jean Lafitte) and with both Spain and France still allowing their colonies in the New World to have slavery it is not impossible to believe that people were smuggled between 1808 and 1859. To move those who were born in country when all slave states were concentrated in the Southern part of the United States boats were often used and it wouldn't be unimaginable that people were picked up along the way to a larger port like New Orleans

What I find more interesting about your Bonnie Blue is you associate it with Texas, but the areas it originally represented in 1810 didn't include Texas. I also find it amusing the guy who wrote the song associated with the flag was Irish born and I can't readily find much information about him, which is odd for something so important in relation to this flag controversy.

[PiKA2001]

^^^ I don't think he associated the Bonnie Blue flag with it flying over TX, more so commenting how TX used it as an inspiration when creating their state flag.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Thank you! I learned something new today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_Blue_Flag



****
The most interesting thing about these types of discussions has been said before, which is that slavery, discrimination, and other forms of social exclusion were (and still are) not relegated to the south, a particular flag, or to a particular political party.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_Blue_Flag

Yeah, I went to that site to find out more information.

The way EW said what he said piqued my curiosity so I decided to look it up.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

What I find more interesting about your Bonnie Blue is you associate it with Texas, but the areas it originally represented in 1810 didn't include Texas.

The Republic of West Florida represents!

Speaking of West Florida, Pensacola, Florida calls itself "The City of Five Flags," representing the five countries that it belonged to at one point: Spain, France, Britain, USA, and the CSA. For as long as I can remember, the Confederate battle flag was used. About 10 or so years ago, a movement started to remove the Battle Flag and replace it with the Stars and Bars. It's funny to me because it represents the exact same thing but for those who don't know better, it's a completely different flag and doesn't carry that baggage.