kappa sigma at fgcu?

[CougarGrad]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

that is exactly right-too many potential risk management issues doing things with a non-recognized group.

And if a group that is NOT officially recognized by the campus community asks for meeting space or other services, they're probably gonna say no for the same reason. They don't want the liability in case something happens.

[KSigAdvisor]

Originally Posted by 33girl

KSigAdvisor, you are a fucking idiot.

No school has to grant ANY group recognition. The only thing that freedom of assocation protects is the right of students to join any group - recognized or unrecognized - without fear of harassment/suspension/expulsion.

As a matter of fact, your argument is really AGAINST freedom of association - as you want to "force" FGCU and its students to accept an organization that they have shown, in a vote, that they do not want. Even if FGCU had approved you, the IFC could still vote you down.

You don't have a leg to stand on as far as equal protection until another fraternity comes in and the school recognizes them immediately.

DKE dealt with things like this for a long time, at many schools, and without the whining. I suggest you google them and learn something.

May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot. (And longwinded, too.)

QFP. Idiot, times two.

[rex in effect]

All I have to say is that the men of the soon to be Rho Zeta chapter of Kappa Sigma have proven all doubters wrong. They succeeded and are becoming a chapter. I would put money on it that FGCU, their IFC, and PanHellenic wanted them to fail because that way the issue would just go away. The fact they are succeeding and becoming a chapter is probably making FGCU mad because they are getting stronger and are not gonna back down. As for the part of associating with sororities on campus. I don't think they even care about having socials with the sororities at FGCU. That is the least of their worries. Jennyj87, i gurantee they could care less about associating with your sorority. Most socials and mixers are just a waste of time anyway. A good one may occur every so often, but it is not even an important part of greek life. Having socials with sororities is not all that important.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rex in effect

All I have to say is that the men of the soon to be Rho Zeta chapter of Kappa Sigma have proven all doubters wrong. They succeeded and are becoming a chapter. I would put money on it that FGCU, their IFC, and PanHellenic wanted them to fail because that way the issue would just go away. The fact they are succeeding and becoming a chapter is probably making FGCU mad because they are getting stronger and are not gonna back down. As for the part of associating with sororities on campus. I don't think they even care about having socials with the sororities at FGCU. That is the least of their worries. Jennyj87, i gurantee they could care less about associating with your sorority. Most socials and mixers are just a waste of time anyway. A good one may occur every so often, but it is not even an important part of greek life. Having socials with sororities is not all that important.

QFP just in case.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

My main point, and again, none of you need to agree in order for KS to be on campus, is that despite all of this bickering and disagreement, which there will be more of in the future, when it comes to protecting our rights against universities, we should all be on the same team. That is why the leaders of every national fraternity support open expansion. If you disagree and think whoever gets to campus first wins, fine. But regardless, when you take the time to read the case law, constitution, Title 9, etc., you will realize that FGCU can't keep us off campus just because our peers (IFC and apparently their local advisors) don't want us here. Groups of people don't have to accept competition, but thankfully FGCU (government) still has to treat everyone equally.

And is response to your comment, Belle, that "we're not awesome" enough, thanks for that. (Where are you at attacking her Stu?) The IFC members go out of their way to make it hard on us. One person in a local chapter called our executive director and said he didn't see us on the website and that we were a joke, but he lied to our executive director about who he was (we found out later). Then the kid went around and told everyone we weren't even recognized by our own fraternity, which was patently false. I'm not complaining, don't get me wrong. We knew what we signed up for, and we embrace the challenge. Further, we do hang out with sorority members, but as for official functions, they have been told not to do events with us (possibly for insurance purposes). PHC even went so far as to instruct their members not to sign our petition because they'd get in trouble for signing it. So, Belle, don't assume anything. Our guys are top notch, despite the year and a half peer bashing they've received from the other groups.

It's sad that you guys would fight so hard to keep a bunch of 18 to 22 year olds from enjoying the same rights and benefits that you enjoyed while undergraduates. You don't have to accept us into IFC, but we want our equal rights from the school, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Let me take this opportunity to re-frame the argument, as you suggested, since we are so far off track.

Please stop saying "we didn't follow the rules." If FGCU and/or IFC has said "in order to operate on campus, you must first turn in your constitution, get a faculty advisor, submit your fiscal budget for the year, and sit through a seminar, then you will be recognized," that would be called implementing "rules." Had that happened, and we had said "no thanks, we don't have to follow those rules; those rules don't apply to us, etc." then at that point each of you would have good reason to question our motives. Those "rules" would be equally applied across the board to every student organization. We would have gladly followed those "rules" and once we are on campus, we will follow any such rules the school may require.

However, here is what really happened, and these are the facts. We asked to come onto campus in November of 2008 during a meeting with the office of student life. They said "no." They didn't lay out a bunch of easy guidelines and steps we had to follow, such as in my hypothetical above, they flat out said no.

Going home at that point is not called following the rules. Public universities don't have the right to allow some universities on campus and ban others. So as you can see, we didn't "break the rules" there were no rules to follow. Telling a group they can't come on campus means there are no rules to follow!! It means they can't come, that's it.

Now, FGCU is a public university funded by taxpayer monies, and the way we see it, they don't have the right to tell any student group they simply can't come onto campus.

And this is where all the 1st and 14th Amendment, Supreme Court rulings, and Title 9 arguments come into play. If you think a public university has the right to tell certain groups they can't come onto campus, despite all the clear case law that says they can't, then I guess that's your business, although it's a very difficult argument to support.

But what can't be debated is that the school gave us zero rules to follow, they simply said go home, you can't be here. That is a fact, plain and simple. So, many of you have over and over said "you should have followed the rules" which is extremely frustrating because, as hopefully you now understand, there were no "rules" to follow. We chose to fight for our civil liberties, and because of that, we're being attacked by many people. It's been an uphill battle, but we're still fighting. We simply won't stand for any governmental entity denying us equal protection of the law, and you shouldn't either.

These are the main parts that I am having trouble with your argument.

#1- We KNOW that NIC and our national offices support open expansion. We get that. But we support it when it is done the proper way.

Which leads to your 2nd argument, and quite frankly, I question why you didn't lead with my 2nd quoted section when you first came on here and began posting. If you thought that we had the facts wrong in the first place, why not lead with that and tell us the facts? As I tell my students: If you are trying to convince me of something, tell me the facts first. Don't lead with a whole bunch of gobbledy-gook (in this case all of this 1st, 2nd, 14th Amendment things- and yes, I know the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is not just a bunch of gobbledy-gook. Don't go there.) and simply tell us your story. But, you waited so long to get to the "facts" that it becomes suspicious, leading to my 2nd point.

#2- You are (now) telling us that you went to the administration/Greek Life Office and all they said was "No." They didn't explain their reasons, they didn't discuss anything. You asked, they simply said "No. Please leave our office without further delay or discusssion. We refuse to talk to you about any of our plans or reasons." Just, "No."

You didn't try to talk to them another time? Kappa Sigma didn't ask a national official to talk to them and find out the process or their plans? Again, I'm sorry, but that is poor planning on Kappa Sigma's part. I found the
FGCU IFC Constitution and Expansion Process on line in about 3 minutes.

As for my last post where I said you had to allow anyone who rushed to join your chapters, if you didn't realize that, it was obviously tongue-in-cheek. Sorry if you missed that.

Stufield- I want to publicly praise you in being able to separate all of the posters' criticisms of the process and actions of this one chapter and being able to see that none of us are attacking Kappa Sigma International Fraternity. You are a credit to your organization and Greek Life.

Sincerely and fraternally,
LaneSig

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

As for you, LaneSig, I believe in complete disclosure and and factual accuracy, so here's what went down: A group of students wanted to start a fraternity and contacted us. We then sent in one of our staff members to meet with FGCU. FGCU informed us that they "weren't open for expansion" and that IFC only "invites" fraternities to come onto campus every year or so. We thought Fort Myers was in the United States of America, so we respectfully said we are coming anyway. For those who keep arguing that at this point we should have respected the university's wishes, you are missing the point. Telling a group of students they can't organize and function on campus is not a rule, it's discrimination. Don't minimize the importance of our plight. First amendment freedoms are as equally important to fraternities as applied to any other group. We (the undergraduate students) have the same rights as every other students. Universities can't simply exclude groups from campus while recognizing other groups, and we will prevail on this point, I promise you.

KSig Advisor -

My apologies, you did post this earlier and I even quoted it in an earlier post. But, now it kind of looks like you are changing your story. In my above quote you are saying that the Administration just said "No" and didn't give you any information. But, in this earlier post you are admitting that the Administration basically said, "Not now. We are inviting groups." Probably asking groups to present and the best fit would be allowed.

So which is it? The Administration said "Not now" and you all said we're going to do it anyway? Which is what you said earlier.

Or, your new story? The Administration said "No" and nothing else. So you went ahead thinking that it would be acceptable?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Jenny87, we have emails of support from Chi Omega and another sorority (can't recall which) supporting us, sent from your national offices.

I never in all my life thought I would say this, but paging NutBrnHair.

[jennyj87]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Jenny, I didn't call you or other females small minded, I said you were "close minded." Before you can "get something," you have to be willing to listen. Thus, calling you closed minded isn't the same as small minded. Also, I'm sure you have insulted someone before that has forgiven you. So, although you were directly and harshly critical of me, I'd ask that you don't hold a grudge and if our guys are deserving and you like them, then judge them as individuals and make your own call. Your executive offices should be contacting you, I hope. They can't "make" you do anything, but they can inform you that this "embargo" against us is silly and unnecessary. Hopefully we gain official recognition soon, and then it will be a moot point.
.

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Welcome to the discussion Southern Belle. No one said you have to fix something that you don't think is broken, and no one said you have a small brain. Calm down... if your small brain will allow.... "I'm just sayin...."

I don't care if it was sarcasm. I'm not holding grudges against "these guys" but how am I suppose to judge them as individuals when what I have seen them as a GROUP try to do on campus and what their fraternity is trying to do on this campus.

"i'm"'going""to""quote""everything""cause""its""co ol!!"

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I never in all my life thought I would say this, but paging NutBrnHair.

It's the end of the world as we know it . . .

[Barbie's_Rush]

Am I reading this correctly? How do you get to be both an undergrad and an adviser at the same time? I know fraternities are different, but this seems really odd.

[ThetaPrincess24]

Originally Posted by Barbie's_Rush

Am I reading this correctly? How do you get to be both an undergrad and an adviser at the same time? I know fraternities are different, but this seems really odd.

He may have graduated with one Bachelor's degree already and is pursuing a second one. I advised my chapter after I completed my first degree and while I was working on my second one.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Lane- I did post the facts earlier on, no worries. And while it is important to "begin with the facts," I didn't start this thread. Someone else started it, I got wind and hopped on. So, I'm wondering why all of you were blogging w/o knowing the facts first?

Anyhow, there is nothing inconsistent with my stories. Please don't insinuate to others that I am misleading anyone. They said "No, not now, we only invite fraternities on campus." (No and not now are one in the same because there are no guarantees any group will ever be let on, as I explain further below). The expansion process was explained, and when I looked online myself, I also found it in a short amount of time.

The (unconstitutional) "systematic" expansion process at FGCU is as such- the IFC, whenever it feels it is ready, forms a Greek Life Expansion Committee (GLIC). The GLIC invites certain fraternities to come onto campus and give a presentation, then votes on which fraternity it would like to "allow" onto campus.

Just to be clear, this part of the process was always clear and explained to us. They said "we are not ready for expansion, so go home, you can't come here." Aka, they said "no" you can't expand. Were we to wait for an unspecified period of time (which again is arbitrary at whenever IFC feels like forming GLIC), we would have only been invited, maybe, to FGCU to "give a presentation." If we weren't selected, which with 4 or 5 other fraternities vetting for the same right was nothing short of a long shot for all involved, then we would have been told, again, "no, you can't come here, not this time, we might invite you back again to try."

So, this is why we have a problem with the process. All of the fraternities that are told "no" are being shot down by the IFC, which doesn't have any legal right to grant or deny anyone their rights. Our rights to operate on public universities don't rest in the hands of the students (IFC). Each and every student has a right to create his or her own lawful student organization and be a Registered Student Organization at FGCU, that is the law (equal protection). If you disagree, go look it up, I posted it yesterday. So, we decided to support the young men who wanted to be a part of Kappa Sigma and help them form a Colony anyway.


However, when we came anyway, some in the Office of Student Life (obviously) weren't pleased. They decided they wouldn't even recognize us as a student group, claiming that because we are a single-gender organization, we can't be recognized. Our response, logically, was that FGCU allows the other fraternities on campus to operate, why would they deny us those same rights? And hence the equal protection of the laws arguments. FGCU can't deny us the right to be a student organization simply because IFC doesn't want us around. That would be like FGCU telling the Baptist Student Association that it couldn't be a Registered Student Organization because the Methodist Student Association and the Presbyterian Student Association didn't want them around. Doesn't make sense, right? That has been illegal since Brown v. Board of Education in 1954.


Now, this is where what we are doing is important. When governmental officials get wild ideas like deciding they can adopt unconstitutional laws and therefore discriminate against Kappa Sigma and every other fraternity who has been told they couldn't colonize, it is vital to the health of democracy that we stand up for our rights. FGCU is infringing upon our rights, and we have chosen to stand up for ourselves. It isn't poor planning on our part, but challenging the system is a slow process until we finally make enough noise to effectuate change.

I honestly don't think FGCU administrators had any ill will when they adopted the private school policies, I just think they were misinformed and didn't realize telling other fraternities they couldn't colonize was unconstitutional at public (aka government and taxpayer supported) universities. And now that they helped implement those policies, the administrators feel partial and are fighting really hard to beat us down, even though those policies are clearly unconstitutional, as we have pointed out. One read through of Title 9 clearly defeats their position.

So, Lane, the argument is multifaceted and can get convoluted, and typing it out each time someone jumps in is pretty inefficient. The school withheld certain information from us after the initial meeting, but we understood their Greek "systematic expansion" policy from the beginning. It wasn't a matter of not knowing the policies, it is the fact that the school says "thanks but no thanks you can't colonize." We are fighting that policy, and despite the road being long and hard, we are close to gaining our rightful recognition from FGCU, I hope. Our young men on campus have been through a lot, and it takes great courage to forge on in the face of all the attacks to which they have been subjected. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and it is impossible to manage everything the undergraduates (and alumni) say to each other, especially when other fraternity members maliciously spread false rumors.

If you are still reading Lane, thank you. I am forced to be long winded to respond to all the attacks and to also tell the story from way back in November of 2008. Hopefully all of the personal shots at me stop, and if anyone has any relevant, insightful or otherwise helpful questions or comments, please post.

Again, was not meaning to insinuate. But, one time you said that the Greek Life Office said "no" and didn't give any explanations and another time you said that you were told "not now" and the process they had implemented (invitation to fraternities) explained. So, do you see why your story would be questioned?

Okay- here is how I see it. In November, 2008, Kappa Sigma asked to colonize. You were told "No/Not now. We want to control to colonization process. We are inviting groups to present and we will select the best one for our campus." (roughly worded)

Kappa Sigma had 2 choices:
Choice #1 - "Wow, that really sucks. We really want to be part of FGCU's growing Greek Life. Okay, we don't agree. But, when you decide to expand IFC, we want to give you a presentation that will blow your socks off. You are going to beg us to colonize. You are going to be so overwhelmed by the guys we select, you'll want them to marry your daughters. We'll keep in touch because we want to be THE ONE!"

Choice #2 - "F--- you. We're going to colonize anyway. You can't stop us. It's our right."

Since the colony then began in December, 2008, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you chose Choice #2.

So, all the arguments about laws and whether or not you have to be in the campus IFC aside, you created your own situation and problems. As I stated in an earlier post, is Kappa Sigma so desparate for colonies that they had to colonize at FGCU? What would have hurt you all by waiting? Seriously, no law talk. What would have hurt?

If you had waited, you could have created a kick-ass presentation that showed what a great National Organization with Fantastic Members you have (and no, I'm not being sarcastic. I have many Kappa Sigma friends. A person who is one of my best friends - lay down my life for- is a Kappa Sig.) If you had waited, you would have shown the Administration how, even if you didn't agree with the process, you were respectful to it. If you had picked Choice #1, you probably would have been selected. You would have been welcomed with open arms by the Administration and the FGCU Greek community. They would have worked with you to ensure your success on campus.

But, you chose Choice #2. You chose the path of most resistance. You chose to go against the wishes of the Administration and fight them instead of working with them to help yourselves. You chose to tell them that their rules don't matter to you. Is it any wonder that they are throwing roadblocks up? If you chose to go against their wishes, why should the Administration think that Kappa Sigma is going to follow any rules set for the campus? The attitude of Choice #2 is "We're going to do what we want, when we want, and we don't care what you say or want." Do you understand that that is what this situation looks like to me, if not all of us?

As for Greek Chat, if you go back and start reading from the beginning, you will see that FSUZeta asked a simple question. I responded with the facts as I knew them. From what has been said on here, I believe in my initial post that I had the facts correct. Jenny responded with some extra information, being a member of the campus we are speaking of. It was only after a new poster, someone who ISN'T EVEN A MEMBER of Kappa Sigma came on and began blasting us, telling me I got my facts wrong, and was pointed out by 33girl that I didn't.

I defended what I said and spoke against his idea of the process. You then joined and told me that I didn't have one of my facts straight, telling me to be educated, not opinionated.

That's when you created your own problems with the members of GC. Your 2nd post began with questioning whether or not we are fraternity and sorority members. Calling us children, when as I pointed out, we are mostly alumns. Yes, a member called you a name. If that is how you react to a random stranger calling you a name on a chatboard, I wonder how you are treating and speaking to the administrators and Greek Life members at FGCU who are not treating you in what you see as a fair manner.

Sorry, but Kappa Sigma created their own problems on FGCU and you created your own problems with the members of GC.

And, you have never answered one of my simple questions: If Kappa Sigma does not wish to be a member of the NIC, why are they trying to get support from NIC members and using NIC resolutions as part of their argument?

[ThetaPrincess24]

I heart you LaneSig! You would make my Sigma Chi father proud

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Barbie's_Rush

Am I reading this correctly? How do you get to be both an undergrad and an adviser at the same time? I know fraternities are different, but this seems really odd.

Wait. Did I miss something? Did he say somewhere he's an undergrad?

[Rambler1869]

I think what should be addressed; is the fact that despite all the rumors and speculations - that as of today (April 12, 2010); the men of the Kappa Sigma colony at FGCU have not broken a single rule of either the administration or the IFC. Don’t believe me? Feel free to do the research.
As it states; there is no rule that says a fraternity cannot colonize without approval (of anyone). The confusion is in two areas; 1st involves use of campus facilities and the other is IFC recognition; which I will address first.
The IFC expansion guidelines only say that a group cannot INITIATE MEMBERS before being recognized to comply with the rules. Regardless of what may happen in the future, no member has broken that rule. (IFC bylaws and expansion can be found at http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/GreekLife/ifcchapters.html).
Regardless of how you feel it should have been approached; Kappa Sigma has not broken any rules. They actually tried for more than a year to meet with the IFC (formally or informally), before finally being allowed to give a presentation.
The IFC is an organization that has the right to pick and choose members; no one is disputing that. However, the dispute comes down to FGCU (the administration, not IFC) by its own equal protection guidelines should grant Kappa Sigma the same use of campus facilities it grants other fraternities on campus.
Don’t agree? Even the Assistant General Counsel for FGCU has issued a written statement to Kappa Sigma early March, which says any individual student can reserve meeting rooms. When attempting to reserve a meeting space, that exact letter was presented and individual student was still denied.
In an ideal situation, yes Kappa Sigma would like to be part of the IFC at FGCU; and if you read all the guidelines set, you'll see that they have actually followed every rule. That being said, what (at the least) these men are currently fighting for is simply the right to use meeting rooms on campus.