Medical School

[AOEforme]

Originally Posted by Titchou

You know, it tough when you have to parse your own writing to others because they don't read exactly what you said. I said the professors were told to not take roll. It was assumed since they all got the transcripts that they were "present." As for flunking out, that means not being able to come back. Every example all of you gave were of people who were allowed to come back or repeat. That is not "flunking out" to me.

True. People get second chances in medical school. They don't flunk out immediately in most places because the selection process is designed that way. However, people do flunk out. You do not get unlimited chances to repeat. You can't just keep taking Step 1 or Step 2 until you pass it.

Originally Posted by Titchou

As for a jealous PhD, most of the hard science related PhDs take just as long to get - or sometimes longer, than completing medical school. They also have to do a post doc which is similar to residency. It ain't all that easy.

I totally agree with you. A PhD ("hard" science or not) is an accomplishment and all of the programs are difficult. It's just a different kind of difficult. No better or worse.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Titchou

You know, it tough when you have to parse your own writing to others because they don't read exactly what you said. I said the professors were told to not take roll. It was assumed since they all got the transcripts that they were "present." As for flunking out, that means not being able to come back. Every example all of you gave were of people who were allowed to come back or repeat. That is not "flunking out" to me.

As for a jealous PhD, most of the hard science related PhDs take just as long to get - or sometimes longer, than completing medical school. They also have to do a post doc which is similar to residency. It ain't all that easy.

Um...I specifically said that 10% of my class failed out in the 1st year. We started with 100 but only graduated with 88, and that includes the 5 people that did not start in my class. That's a LOT of people that flunked out. They didn't get to come back. I also know people who don't get to practice AFTER graduating medical school because they never passed USMLE Steps II or III. It happens ALL. THE. TIME. BTW, repeating a year of medical school is a pretty big deal, too. At my cheapo state school, I had to take out $20,000 in loans each year I was in school. If I flunked out a year and had to repeat, I don't consider a $20,000 mistake "no big deal", and neither did the people I knew in school that were in that situation.

[Titchou]

No, actually once you graduate you can call yourself "doctor". And you don't have to do any residencies to set up shop. You do have to pass state boards but all states are not created equal. You just won't be "board certified" in a specialty. Why do you think we have so many crumby doctors out there? And so many law suits. How many doctors that you go to have you checked out their CV? Where they went to med school? how does that school rate in that specialty? Where they did their residency and any fellowships? Are those good ones? Have you check with the state medical board about his license? Law suits? Reprimands? I promise you that I have not gone to a doctor in many decades that I didn't check out from stem to stern first - based on what I learned from my ex and the people I met. Some of it would make your hair curl.

And when I say it is "my experience" I don't know how to better qualify it. Your experience is yours and mine is mine. They may differ but they are both still valid. Let me put it this way. My BIL is an endodontist. They live out of state but are easy to get to. I needed a root canal but they were on vacation. I called and asked if he knew any endos still in practice here. He didn't but one of his classmates was the chair of endo at the local dental school where BIL went. Said to call him and tell him who I was. I did. Told him the two endos my dentist suggested. He said "Doctor X will do you a good job." That told me all I needed to know. You have to check these folks out.

And this is all I have to say on the topic....

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

No, actually once you graduate you can call yourself "doctor".

Hate to have to parse my words for you, but I didn't say otherwise. In fact, I said "yes." Calling yourself "doctor" by virtue of a degree and being licensed to practice medicine are two separate and distinct things, at least where I live.

Of course there are bad doctors out there. Lots of them went to med school decades ago, when they took attendance in class and didn't have transcripts of lectures. You're drawing a cause-and-effect connection that may or may not be valid.

And when I say it is "my experience" I don't know how to better qualify it. Your experience is yours and mine is mine. They may differ but they are still valid.

The problem is two-fold: Your initial comments were not limited to your experience; they were comments about medical schools generally. And your statements weren't based on your experience. They were based on what others told you about their experiences, which might or might not have been objective perspectives and which might or might not have been limited to their specific situations.

My brother is a doctor. My nephew (his son) is in med school. I've had quite a few conversations with both of them about how my nephew's med school experience (at a "top" school, for whatever that's worth) is different from my brother's (at a different "top" school), including in how classes are conducted. FWIW, my brother seems to think that most of the differences are positive and probably result in better trained doctors. Still, that doesn't put me in a position to offer any credible opinion based on my own knowledge of the state of medical school education in the country. I have no experience with medical schools. The experiences of others, even those in my family, aren't my experiences.

[AOII Angel]

Honestly, sitting in class and being lectured to does not a good doctor make. There are so many facets to a good doctor, and a PhD, not being a doctor, wouldn't know what it would take to be a good doctor. I would trust them to tell me whether or not the student mastered the subject matter. When I stated that some PhDs are jealous, I did say SOME...and I stand by that statement. Yes. It takes a long time to get a PhD, but is frequently easier to get into a program and much less lucrative which leads to sour grapes for SOME. In all professions you will have the good and the bad, but you can't chalk it up to attendance at school lectures. My husband is probably one of the best pediatric endocrinologists you'll find. He's gifted...probably because he was a child prodigy, but I digress. He skipped nearly the half a semester of second year after his parents split up and decided not to drop out of school at the last minute. I also know plenty of physicians that never missed a class but can't put the didactics and clinical aspects together. Medicine is as much an art as it is a science. The challenge is to take the knowledge gained the first two years and being able to apply it in clinical practice. It's very common to see the class rank reverse in the second two years of school. What you think you know about medical school and doctors could fill a thimble. Very few doctors go out and practice without completing residencies...nowadays, few will practice without doing fellowships. Yes, an intern can call himself Doctor, but after going to school for 8 years post high school, I think he deserves it! (Dr.Phil I use he in the neutral sense.)

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Yes. It takes a long time to get a PhD, but is frequently easier to get into a program....

LOL. Why did you let Titchou turn this into a Ph.D. versus M.D. discussion. Even if it was "frequently easier" to get into a program across disciplines, the true test is completing the program. Hundreds (thousands?) of people get into doctoral programs around the world each year, however they got there, and only a percentage of them will ever complete the doctoral programs.

It is just like what you all are telling Titchou about medical school.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

...and much less lucrative which leads to sour grapes for SOME.

I can see that. Until they realize that there are many sleep deprived medical doctors who are miserable having to bust their behinds for every bit of that lucrativeness.

Within disciplines and across disciplines, a Ph.D. has a range of salaries depending on what people want to do with it. People who care about making a ton of money will choose their doctoral training and career accordingly. Since this is a Ph.D. versus M.D. discussion.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I think he/she deserves it! (Dr.Phil I use he in the neutral sense.)

No such thing as gender neutral.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

LOL. Why did you let Titchou turn this into a Ph.D. versus M.D. discussion. Even if it was "frequently easier" to get into a program across disciplines, the true test is completing the program. Hundreds (thousands?) of people get into doctoral programs around the world each year, however they got there, and only a percentage of them will ever complete the doctoral programs.

It is just like what you all are telling Titchou about medical school.



I can see that. Until they realize that there are many sleep deprived medical doctors who are miserable having to bust their behinds for every bit of that lucrativeness.

Within disciplines and across disciplines, a Ph.D. has a range of salaries depending on what people want to do with it. People who care about making a ton of money will choose their doctoral training and career accordingly. Since this is a Ph.D. versus M.D. discussion.



No such thing as gender neutral.

I knew that would bother you.

I totally agree with you, but I'm talking about the true attitudes of SOME PhD professors at medical schools. They make much less than their charges will some day. The vast majority are dedicated professionals who love teaching the next generation of physicians, but I do know ones who resent physicians for their very existence. Titchou's "husband" sounds like one of those. It's not a MD vs PhD thing except in the mind of the those people who can't accept that there is a place for all of us in this world.

[Kappamd]

We do, in fact, have to pass boards between our second and third years of medical school, and again once we graduate. National exams, so yes, they are created equal.

[AOEforme]

I got my score back!!!! It took forever because there was some issue and they released like three months of scores at once.... oh thank goodness!

[thewasher418]

Originally Posted by AOEforme

I got my score back!!!! It took forever because there was some issue and they released like three months of scores at once.... oh thank goodness!

Congrats!! I imagine you've started MS3 year by now, how's it going?

[AOEforme]

Originally Posted by thewasher418

Congrats!! I imagine you've started MS3 year by now, how's it going?

Love it! I had 4 weeks of family med and 4 weeks of Internal Med I, which had three weeks in clinic, so I have had 7 weeks of pretty easy rotations. It is fantastic! Third year is so much better than first and second.

I switch to being a TA for my next "block", so we'll see how that goes.

[thewasher418]

Originally Posted by AOEforme

It is fantastic! Third year is so much better than first and second.

Common sentiment. Nice to realize that the end product of all this is getting to take care of patients, not sit in lecture and memorize powerpoint slides.

Alas, the freedom and control over your own schedule you had as an MS1 and MS2 is gone, never to return.

[Kappamd]

I'm glad to hear M3 is going well for you!

Ugh, I've taken both CK and CS within the last week, and all I want is a break. Too bad I start my first fourth year elective on Monday. It's an away, a sub-I, and at a super well-known program. I'm FREAKING out right now!

And my goal to finish Eras before starting? Yeah, not happening.

[Kappamd]

Congrats!

[blackngoldengrl]

BUMP

Hello! It's been a while since I've logged on, residency keeps me busy, but it's great. I'm especially loving that I have 5 months left!

How are interviews and rotations going?