Phi Kappa Psi at U of Virginia Voluntarily Suspends Activities

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is an unfortunate discussion.

I hope people realize that men also precipitate (which isn't victim blaming) their own victimization as well as precipitating many circumstances in which they are accused of crimes. Yet and still, people tend not to preach to men about the behaviors that increase the likelihood of such incidents.

But people love to preach to women. It is absolutely sickening.

I don't see it as gender based. Of course men precipitate their own victimization, in lots of ways. Who doesn't think that?

It IS possible to view a victim (male or female) with empathy while simultaneously recognizing what they could do differently to avoid becoming a victim. How do humans ever learn from their mistakes otherwise if it's out of bounds to mention that?

Personally, I know I "preached" to my sons way more than I ever did my daughter. Their childhood and college years were filled with "please don't eat the daisies" moments where my imagination failed to keep up with the things they could think up that could put their lives in danger.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

This DOES happen! There was an incident on the news just the other day about a woman who was attacked just this way. Of course I "get it". Rape can and does take place in many, many different situations. But I also "get" having some common sense about what kinds of situations you expose yourself to as a woman. And what the attendant risks are. Also what self-protective measures we as women can take. IMO to think otherwise is very naive and unrealistic.

I didn't mean you, I meant if the mother thinks her daughter is covered solely by having a police whistle and pepper spray, she's deluding herself. All women need to know how to combat the physical, mental and emotional forms of assault.

[1964Alum]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I didn't mean you, I meant if the mother thinks her daughter is covered solely by having a police whistle and pepper spray, she's deluding herself. All women need to know how to combat the physical, mental and emotional forms of assault.

Not at all. Both parents are recently retired US Diplomats and as such have been in many very different (and often dangerous) parts of the world and in many different circumstances. Mother went over with daughter her normal routine and identified with her vulnerabilities. One glaring one was walking home to her apartment by herself in the dark after a late class. She got herself a bike to be able to travel at a greater speed then added pepper spray and a police whistle on a cord. No guarantees of complete safety, but she does have some defenses in place. Predators of all kinds prey on the vulnerable, as we know.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I didn't mean you, I meant if the mother thinks her daughter is covered solely by having a police whistle and pepper spray, she's deluding herself. All women need to know how to combat the physical, mental and emotional forms of assault.

Yes, this.

But it's also necessary to be able to assess risk with some semblance of accuracy. With our 24/7 news cycle that loves to sensationalize, people have a hard time with this. Remember the recent Ebola frenzy? And a few years ago it was the shark frenzy. In the 80's it was the daycare child molester frenzy. And we've had the rape crisis frenzy for a while. Rape is a problem, and not just on college campuses. But hysteria doesn't lead to effective policy decisions to combat it.

[DrPhil]

Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

I don't believe anyone should be branded a "rapist" and punished without organizational investigations and, if it is a legal situation, the proper legal procedures.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

I don't believe anyone should be branded a "rapist" and punished without organizational investigations and, if it is a legal situation, the proper legal procedures.

At the end of the day, these are actual people, these young men and women, with a specific, individual set of facts to each allegation. And somebody(s) is having to decide. Can the discussion go beyond the sweeping generalities?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

At the end of the day, these are actual people, these young men and women, with a specific, individual set of facts to each allegation. And somebody(s) is having to decide. Can the discussion go beyond the sweeping generalities?

What are you typing about?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

I don't believe anyone should be branded a "rapist" and punished without organizational investigations and, if it is a legal situation, the proper legal procedures.

At the end of the day, some allegations will, in fact, have to be dismissed. Won't they? Otherwise, what's the point of an investigation or legal procedures?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

At the end of the day, some allegations will, in fact, have to be dismissed. Won't they? Otherwise, what's the point of an investigation or legal procedures?

What are you typing about?

Dismissing allegations after a thorough investigation does not have to mean dismissing allegations solely because of narrow views regarding "rape".

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What are you typing about?

Your words.

Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Your words.

I know my words. What are you typing about?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What are you typing about?

Dismissing allegations after a thorough investigation does not have to mean dismissing allegations solely because of narrow views regarding "rape".

Ah, you edited. No of course it doesn't HAVE to mean that. But we do have to have some general consensus as a society as to what constitutes rape. The vast majority of men and women would look at the Swarthmore fact set and think "if that's rape, then geez, I'm guilty". Are you advocating that we narrow it and call it rape, and expel the student as a rapist? If you are, why don't you just say so?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by honorgal

No of course it doesn't HAVE to mean that.

Good.

[1964Alum]

Men absolutely precipitate their own victimization. There is plenty of need for serious examination all the way around. And it won't come overnight.

[Low D Flat]

The vast majority of men and women would look at the Swarthmore fact set and think "if that's rape, then geez, I'm guilty"

I can't speak to the vast majority, but that's true of me, anyway. I've both raped and been raped if that's rape. You tell your partner you aren't in the mood, the partner gets undressed and tries to be seductive, it works, and consensual sex happens without the verbal "no" ever being withdrawn. If the seduction doesn't work to change your mood, you say, "Nice try, honey, maybe tomorrow."

As far as my boyfriend is concerned, if we're in bed together and he pulls my panties down, and I just watch silently, that means "yes, keep going."