Medical School

[Titchou]

Well, then you clearly aren't at one of the better ones because he was....and it wasn't the only one he taught at and the same thing happened at the other one. Sorry you picked one without all the perks....because these two really have them....

[LadyLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Oh come on. My ex (PhD in biological chem) taught at a med school. They give you a transcript of all lectures on day of. They don't even take roll. There is no way to flunk out of med school. It may be a lot of material but you aren't having to sit in class and takes notes...they spoon feed you.

Originally Posted by Titchou

Well, then you clearly aren't at one of the better ones because he was....and it wasn't the only one he taught at and the same thing happened at the other one. Sorry you picked one without all the perks....because these two really have them....

Oh wait. This isn't the If You Laugh You Lose thread?

[Titchou]

And, Lady Longhorn, one would probably be near and dear to your heart - considering your screen name!

[Kappamd]

Originally Posted by Titchou

And, Lady Longhorn, one would probably be near and dear to your heart - considering your screen name!

Right. I'm sure Lady Longhorn is just crying her eyes out somewhere over your ignorant comments.

[LadyLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Titchou

And, Lady Longhorn, one would probably be near and dear to your heart - considering your screen name!

The University of Texas System =/= The University of Texas

Originally Posted by Kappamd

Right. I'm sure Lady Longhorn is just crying her eyes out somewhere over your ignorant comments.

Yes I am just devastated.

[Titchou]

I know for a fact that at least one medical school in Texas and one in Alabama tell the professors to not take roll, require them to give their lectures in advance to a transcription service that sells them to the medical students and that these two institutions do not "flunk" students. My ex complained about it but it made no difference. That was school policy and he had to abide by it as long as he taught there.

I'm not saying these are bad medical schools. But it's a fact that one can repeat as many years of med school as needed to graduate because there really is no way they are going to tell you not to come back as long as someone is paying the bill. Administration looks at it this way: if someone flunks out then it means the school should not have accepted you in the first place and it looks bad on them. I've heard the discussion. Of course, they can strongly suggest you withdraw but that's not the same thing on their record. And you know what they call the person who graduates last in their class from med school.

[thewasher418]

People can and do flunk out of med school. Not in the same numbers as some other schools, maybe, but that's how it's set up. The system is basically designed so that most of the attrition happens before enrollment- the number of aspiring pre-meds vs. the number of actual med school matriculants is astronomically different. Once you are in, most schools worth their salt have multiple support systems to help you succeed, but sometimes it just doesn't work out.

Note that I said most, not all, schools. Even I, who actually applied, entered, and finished one medical school wouldn't be so arrogant as to think I could make blanket statements about all of them. But please, Titchou, tell us more about the things you've heard and seen and how all schools follow the same pattern.

[Titchou]

All I can do is state my experience. My husband taught under these conditions. I heard numerous conversations at department and school events between the deans and chairs about these very issues at their schools and with comparisions to others. They were very open in those circles about it. Am sure the students would have been shocked as I was at first. But is seemed to be pretty pervasive to me!

[AOII Angel]

Your husband's experience isn't the ONLY experience. My class dropped by 10% after the first year and I graduated with four people that had originally started in other classes but failed classes in their first two years. You absolutely can fail medical school. Some schools DO check attendance. I had classes that I never went to, but I had others that would drop you a letter grade if you missed more than a certain number. And what your precious PhD doesn't tell you is that no matter what your attendance is, if you can't pass Step I of the USMLE, you can't pass second year of medical school. You get two chances...people DO flunk out of medical school for failing this test. The awesome thing is that people that go to medical school are smart and driven people who don't all have to go to class to make the grade. Unfortunately, some PhD professors at Medical Schools are jealous of their students potential and will continue to be jealous until the end of time. That is the truth of the matter.

[AOEforme]

Originally Posted by thewasher418

People can and do flunk out of med school. Not in the same numbers as some other schools, maybe, but that's how it's set up. The system is basically designed so that most of the attrition happens before enrollment- the number of aspiring pre-meds vs. the number of actual med school matriculants is astronomically different. Once you are in, most schools worth their salt have multiple support systems to help you succeed, but sometimes it just doesn't work out.

So true. Most schools that I have had experience with either personally or through friends currently attending have Academic Hearing Committees, allow you to repeat classes, require academic probation, etc. They also require students to repeat the year at a certain point.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Your husband's experience isn't the ONLY experience. My class dropped by 10% after the first year

Same here.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

if you can't pass Step I of the USMLE, you can't pass second year of medical school. You get two chances

I just took this test two days ago and it is BRUTAL. It is eight hours and I prepped for it for six months. You don't pass that test without having worked your butt off for all two years of pre-clinical. I'm terrified right now that I failed and I worked.

But, OK. Let's say your ex worked at two "easy" medical schools where students really don't fail out and no class is ever mandatory and they all are given transcripts. Medical school would still be difficult in this case. Why? It's not like undergraduate where you're golden if you can get a copy of the lectures. In an exam question, you'll be given a patient presentation and be asked what bacteria has an exotoxin with a similar mechanism of action to the mechanism of action of the medication you would use to treat this disease. If you are missing even one of those steps, you wouldn't be able to answer the question.

Medical school really is about mastering the material, rather than "knowing" it because you really have to be able to bend it every which way in your mind. Just having a transcript doesn't do anything. In fact, I would really appreciate a school similar to the one you are complaining about. It sounds like they realize that their students have a huge task in front of them and are setting them up for success by permitting them to not waste time in lecture if it isn't helpful to them. Not everyone learns well in a lecture setting.

For instance, my school audio records all lectures so that students need not attend if that is how they best learn. A lot of my colleagues would go to the library instead of class and listen to the lectures on 2x the speed so they could get through double the lectures in half the time. They would then have extra time to review that day's material, prep for the test, do the readings, practice physical exam techniques, etc.

I think the main point here (well, one of them) is that when people skip class in medical school they aren't sitting at home while drinking beer and playing Halo. They're in the library or a home office trying to maximize their efficiency.

For me, even though I finished one of the biggest tests of my life, I still have to go study today. I have a huge amount of studying to get done before I start Family Med I rotations.

[DrPhil]

I said to myself "let's see what the cool medical folks are talking about in that innocent and peaceful thread." I guess not.

Originally Posted by Titchou

All I can do is state my experience.

You did not just state your experience. You tried to attach the experience of a few people and make a statement of the rigor of medical schools. It is laughable to tell people that their programs were a walk in the park. It is even more laughable when that assessment is based on nothing more than word of mouth and pillow talk.

My unsolicited advice to AOII Angel and others: Do not waste time explaining anything to someone who has never been in medical school. As for the jealous Ph.D. faculty in medical schools, I assume that applies to those who wish they had an M.D. rather than a Ph.D. because they aspire toward a different area of expertise. That is different than the perceived implication that (medical students and) an M.D. is the creme dela creme of terminal degrees.

[AOII Angel]

BTW, I graduated from medical school 11 years ago today! That means I graduated from residency 5 years ago...wow time flies!

I almost forgot, I had one guy fail into my class who is now an oncologist. He had a 4.0. Totally brilliant. Knew EVERYTHING! His offense? Never went to class. Everyone was appalled that they actually held him back.

A few years later, LSU was dinged by the governing body of medical schools for having too many didactic hours for students. All medical schools are encouraged to have about 4 or fewer a day. We had 8 hours a day. I know LSU checks attendance now with a computerized system. I saw it when I went back to teach board review for my residency program.

[als463]

Originally Posted by Titchou

All I can do is state my experience. My husband taught under these conditions. I heard numerous conversations at department and school events between the deans and chairs about these very issues at their schools and with comparisions to others. They were very open in those circles about it. Am sure the students would have been shocked as I was at first. But is seemed to be pretty pervasive to me!

Normally I try to stay out of these discussions as I am in no way affiliated with a medical school; however, your statement "my husband" is what I am betting most likely gets under the skin of others. Who knows-maybe not. This "my husband" statement is my complaint when, as someone who served in the military, I would have military wives try to tell me what was what because "my husband" blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. Please don't do that. It is annoying when people try to make statements based on what their spouse did or said. That is all I wanted to add to this discussion.

[Titchou]

You know, it tough when you have to parse your own writing to others because they don't read exactly what you said. I said the professors were told to not take roll. It was assumed since they all got the transcripts that they were "present." As for flunking out, that means not being able to come back. Every example all of you gave were of people who were allowed to come back or repeat. That is not "flunking out" to me.

As for a jealous PhD, most of the hard science related PhDs take just as long to get - or sometimes longer, than completing medical school. They also have to do a post doc which is similar to residency. It ain't all that easy.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Titchou

As for a jealous PhD, most of the hard science related PhDs take just as long to get - or sometimes longer, than completing medical school. They also have to do a post doc which is similar to residency. It ain't all that easy.

I recommend not using the bolded outdated terminology.

Doctoral programs across disciplines can take 4-7 years depending on courses, exams, dissertations, field work, life events, etc. However, this thread is not a competition between M.D. and Ph.D.

Postdocs** are only required if the person needs research/clinical/licensing/field experience to be eligible to work in the field or to get a better position in the field and the person did not attain these things prior to completing the doctorate. Generally speaking and regardless of the field of expertise, a Ph.D. tends not to require a postdoc. People simply choose to do a postdoc. People can also choose to do a postdoc after they have had the doctorate for a few years and worked in the field of expertise. Postdoc only means "after the doctorate" and does not mean that it (is required for the field and) has to occur immediately after completing the doctorate.

**If you are talking about required clinical, licensing, certificate, or field experience that are a part of the doctorate degree, that is not the same thing as a postdoc. A postdoc is after the degree has been conferred.