Fraternity Life 2

[AXORissa]

Originally posted by kddani
I'm sorry, not to be rude, but I'm not going to trust some random person on the internet, who may or may not be the person from FL2. Especially when it comes to the law. I posted the statute because you talked about it, it's only fair to the discussion that the rest of people be able to read it. I also would never trust anyone who would do those kinds of things to people that are supposed to be their friends and brothers. Sorry, that's juts me.

You guys are just damn lucky that none of your pledges (or ex pledges) has sued you. None of you seem to be forward-looking enough to see how a lawsuit could affect you. And the fact that it's all caught on tape doesn't really help your case either. There's hours upon hours of footage that hasn't even aired and could easily be subpoenaed from MTV.

It doesn't matter that penal code is different from criminal code... I wasn't quite sure what you meant by that. I never said one was more enforceable than the other. Criminal code is enforced by the police and the District Atty's office would bring suit. With other laws, someone personally would have to bring suit. That's all that I originally meant by that. And it's not like the group as a whole could be sued, you'd all be individually sued. I'm guessing that DOC isn't operating in a business form, therefore you don't have any of the individual protections that something such as a corporation would have. Hard to explain quickly, but it affects who can be found liable and who can't.

And yes, it's rather convenient for you guys that you got kicked of campus. But that sure as hell doesn't seem like something to be proud of.

Look, you're not going to find many people on this site that agree with you. A few, yes. But the rest of us are disgusted at how you are representing greeks. And it affects all of us as greeks having to deal with these images and convince potential greeks and everyone else that our respective chapters are nothing like yours.

You're not going to convince us that what you're doing is right, because it goes against the very values and ideals that our respective GLOs have taught us.

hehe, I can tell you go to law school

you rock.

*another pointless post from Rissa*

[OtterXO]

Originally posted by AXORissa
hehe, I can tell you go to law school

I was thinking the same thing...legal minds all think alike!

[KDbutterfly]

Originally posted by GeorginaDG63
EXACTLY!!! saying a little hazing isnt as bad as other hazing...thats like saying well this boy beat up this other kid, but didnt demolish him...so id rather be just SIMPLY beat up? what the????

its a lot easier to say you wouldnt mind being in one persons shoes...until you ACTUALLY fill them. i doubt you would last one second if you were TRULY in that position. i know personally, i just wanna say THANK GOODNESS Delta Gamma has a ZERO tolerance for hazing

Geez, I'm just saying, it doesn't seem like it's worth going to court over. Also, fraternities are a little different than sororities. What seems like hazing to us, doesn't seem all that bad to guys. I know that if anyone in my house were getting hazed like that, we'd get them in trouble so quick, but we're girls. Guys get made to do push ups and they feel it builds character. If they don't, then they just quit, but most guys stick it out, cause they don't see the problem with it. If they were getting physically harmed though, that's a completely different issue, and one that I feel is definitely worth fighting against. But that just isn't the case here.

[KerriMarie]

Ok, on a slightly different note, Kevin is a freaking hottie.

That is all.

[GeorginaDG63]

Originally posted by KDbutterfly
Geez, I'm just saying, it doesn't seem like it's worth going to court over. Also, fraternities are a little different than sororities. What seems like hazing to us, doesn't seem all that bad to guys. I know that if anyone in my house were getting hazed like that, we'd get them in trouble so quick, but we're girls. Guys get made to do push ups and they feel it builds character. If they don't, then they just quit, but most guys stick it out, cause they don't see the problem with it. If they were getting physically harmed though, that's a completely different issue, and one that I feel is definitely worth fighting against. But that just isn't the case here.

i definitely agree with you...fraternities definitely differ from sororities when it comes down to hazing. all i am saying...and if it seemed directed towards you it wasnt...i was using "you" in my previous post as a "you" in general...but anyways...all i am saying is its hard to make a statement, unless you have actually been in the position of being hazed. to someone on the outside it may seem to be something so tiny and not offensive...but to the person bein hazed no matter how little the thing was they had to do...it could really make or break them. which i guess is sort of the point...to have them MAKE it stronger and bond together, i dunno...i just honestly dont see the point. i have bonded plenty well with my sisters without being hazed!

[hoosier]

I also enjoyed the Camp Jim episode following FL2. It's about some friendly guy who runs a cheerleading camp.

Now, there, is screaming in the little cheerleaders faces, forced exercises (including a strange sit-up left-lift-split combo that looks tough), and threats.

It's originally on at 4:00 daily, I think.

[butterfly2001nc]

i watch that!!!

[vanda]

Originally posted by Pi Kapp 142
I think the "duck" referance is an unfriendly nickname for another fraternity. "

I don't know if it's the same there, but the unfriendly nickname of duck was for the fraternity Delta Upsilon. I have seen quite few arguments break out over that one with the clueless pledge being the one to say the name out in public trying to prove himself to his other buddies to show how cool he is. Off topic but did you guys see how narrow Robbie's body was when he had on the grey tee shirt? He looked like he had bound his midsection.

[PhiDelt649]

Okay, we all -apparently- agree that hazing is horrible. That it is bad and whatnot. Yet, hazing goes on in nearly every organized group: football, greeks, Military, etc.

Basically, my chapter doesn't haze all that much, according to our definition. Our GHQ's definition includes everything from scavenger hunts to making the pledges participate in Buy A Phi.

My question: If not for some form of hazing, how will fraternities differentiate between the ones who SHOULD be here, and the ones that shouldn't. Im not saying "Kick the shit out of that guy and if he can still stand, he's worthy to join us." I could never do that and then call the guy a brother 8 weeks later.

I AM saying that Pledgeship should be 60% and 40% rough. Hazing nowadays is just another victim of the social predication America is currently going through. Everyone is leaping at the chance to take a PC stance and point fingers. As George Carlin states: "Back in the '60s, you could leave a child in a hot car for an hour while you ran into the store. Nowadays, if I leave my dog in the car for 5 minutes, I'll be lynched on the 6 o'clock news."

Men were built to be tough and to endure a great deal of mental stress. Not to be babied and gently led to manhood. That is one of the reasons we are genetically 20% stronger than females. Im not saying females are weak, btw. As far as the "Sensitive Man of the 21st Century," I dont buy it.

I treat my girlfriend like gold. Im not an asshole. Im not an elitist. Yet, I may or may not have went through my hazing.

I know I may sound like an asshole saying all these, but I believe some hazing should exist in every fraternity. Not the kind where we kick the shit out of you, but the kind in which you are under enormous pressure. The kind which forces you to think under stress, balance your time and bond with your fellow pledge brothers.

So....let the flaming begin.... :-)

[AXORissa]

Originally posted by OtterXO
I was thinking the same thing...legal minds all think alike!

haha, thats what these law schools want to do to us!!

[hoosier]

Originally posted by PhiDelt649


I AM saying that Pledgeship should be 60% and 40% rough. Hazing nowadays is just another victim of the social predication America is currently going through. Everyone is leaping at the chance to take a PC stance and point fingers. As George Carlin states: "Back in the '60s, you could leave a child in a hot car for an hour while you ran into the store. Nowadays, if I leave my dog in the car for 5 minutes, I'll be lynched on the 6 o'clock news."

Men were built to be tough and to endure a great deal of mental stress. Not to be babied and gently led to manhood.

I know I may sound like an asshole saying all these, but I believe some hazing should exist in every fraternity. Not the kind where we kick the shit out of you, but the kind in which you are under enormous pressure. The kind which forces you to think under stress, balance your time and bond with your fellow pledge brothers.

.... :-)

Back in the '60s, everybody did hazing - some bad, some really bad - and if something happened the chapter got no-socials probation, maybe no intramurals, for a semester or year. Fraternity alumni were in many prominent positions - on campus and off - and college presidents, who wanted success and a long tenure, left athletics and fraternities alone.

Now, if a hazed pledge is hospitalized or his mommy finds out, or if a former pledge/member/girl friend reports hazing, it will be nationally publicized (do you remember the powderpuff football girls hazing in a Chicago suburb), and your national office and your student affairs office will fight to see which can kick you off campus quickest.

If your "enormous pressurre" and "stress" gets your chapter suspended, the lawyers will go after you and the individual brothers. If hazing is a crime in your state, and it probably is, then student affairs will turn the info over to the state and local police, and you, your individual brothers, your chapter, and your national face real criminal charges, fines, and big-boys jail time.

I urge you to look at the other threads about Fiji at Santa Barbara (a copy of a 29-page lawsuit by a hazee's parents is available at the campus newspaper site), DU at Nebraska, and a lot of others in the Risk Management Section. Go to Google News and search for "hazing", and you'll see the publicity, law suits, police investigations, and jail time college, athletic, and high school hazers are getting. It's scary what happens to individuals who think "they did it to me when I was a pledge (or rookie), and now its my turn ... we all went through it."

You said "Everyone is leaping at the chance to take a PC stance and point fingers." These finger pointers have ALL the power right now. They may be pointing at you.

Probably some GC reader saw your post, and will assume that Phi Delt at Kent State hazes. They'll notify Oxford, and by Monday Oxford's hazing police will probably be at your chapter meeting.

They, and I, want you to have a strong and demanding pledge period, based on the principles in your officer manuals - not on hazing.

If you are hazing, they, and I, want your chapter closed before your actions bring down the Gods of bad publicity upon all of us.

[PhiDelt649]

I think you misread what I wrote. Im not saying that we should "haze," Im saying we should haze. The definition of hazing is too broad, and ridiculous. Any mental stress is considered hazing. Scavenger hunts. Etc.

You can think Im the antichrist, I dont frankly care. Phi Delt doesnt haze their pledges, in the sense that most people have. I never had a hand laid on me. I never thought "when Im active, Ill get to do this to them." Every, and I MEAN everything the pledges do, I do with them. Im with them on every mission. I clean with them whenever that have to clean. I attended their New Member Convocation.

The reason? It reminds me of what it was like to be a pledge and how much fun it was. So don't attempt to nail us to a cross of generalization or stereotypes.

"If you are hazing, they, and I, want your chapter closed before your actions bring down the Gods of bad publicity upon all of us."

Thats a pretty ignorant statement. You want our chapter closed? I would never wish that on ANY chapter, of ANY fraternity. That is akeen to calling an african american the n-word. To have our chapter shut down is to shut down every memory, every legacy, every legend of a chapter. Thats pretty fucked up that you'd say something like that, but whatever.

[DOC_Casey]

I'll copy/paste my quote from the other thread here because I thought we were starting a new one.

No one will ever convince the other person they are right.. so let me ask you this:

What if I want to join an organization that, BY DEFINITION, hazes? What if I *believe* going though technically hazing events will make me be a closer brother? I'm not arguing IF it does or does not, I'm saying what if that is what I want?


My point is that there are hundreds of different organizations across the country. Some are social, some are philanthropic, some are ethnic. We should are be urged to join the org that fits us best.


I feel we are trying to sell Christianity to a Muslim here. It isn't going to work. Instead can we maybe focus on the fact that people go through all of this because it is for them? Women join Sororities for different reasons then guys join Fraternities. Some guys join a particular org for DRASTICALLY different reasons then others join OTHER orgs.

Why is it that the orgs that are SO horrible for hazing, being abusive, etc etc never criticize the 'good' organizations for what they believe in? Why can't everyone be proud of their beliefs/decisions and respect the beliefs/decisions of other people?

Casey


***BTW please don't respond with the typical 'Our org's actions will represent your org's actions. Anyone who is going to lump all Greeks into one pile will never respect you anyways. It is the same as all the OTHER discriminatory prejudices out there.

[SirHornyToad]

i expected to be hazed when i joined my frat, i woulda been pissed and thought the actives were pussies if they hadnt. I wanted paddleing and pushups, not punch and pie !

[OrigamiTulip]

Originally posted by SirHornyToad
not punch and pie !

"Tell them we'll have punch and pie. "
"We're not going to have punch and pie!"
"But more people will come if they think we have punch and pie."

Sorry. I just couldn't resist...