Why Haze!!

[LPIDelta]

Originally Posted by Jim_Hoegaarden

Ok, I'm a DU like Mystic, and seriously, there is a reason that Nationally DU sucks...but there is also a reason why my chapter doesn't, we have a pedgeship that is difficult. Every fraternity has rules agaisnt hazing that is broken in some form or another. Hazing for hazing sake is stupid, but doing it for a reason does make sense.

If you think your organization "sucks" then I am sure they wouldn't mind if you disaffiliated. And I am sure your blantant disregard for hazing policies and your willingness to jeopardize the welfare of the entire organization by your actions is another reason your "suck"y brothers wouldn't mind.

And thank you for proving the point that hazing doesn't work. You didn't join a chapter--you joined an entire organization. It will only take one mega lawsuit because someone died or was injured to bring the entire organization down. A mature adult recognizes this fact and adjusts their actions accordingly. If your pledgeship worked as well as you say it did, you would have learned to think of your organization and the welfare of your brothers first, and your own selfish need to make others prove themselves would not be part of the picture. Isn't that what it's all about--brotherhood first?

[Tinia2]

Originally Posted by Jim_Hoegaarden

Ok, I'm a DU like Mystic, and seriously, there is a reason that Nationally DU sucks...but there is also a reason why my chapter doesn't, we have a pledge-ship that is difficult. Every fraternity has rules against hazing that is broken in some form or another. Hazing for hazing sake is stupid, but doing it for a reason does make sense.

LPIdelta, I don't care what you think. It does work, get over it.

Same goes for you AST.

at post 133 we get to the point where just about every thread in rm gets to. hazing is hazing is hazing. good vs evil. what is the real point of it and what is the real definition of it.

however the line of hazing for hazing sake is stupid, but doing it for a reason does make {some} sense sure does seem to be a rather circular and self serving argument.

jm-get over it yourself. and perhaps read some of the postings not only here, as suggested, but elsewhere in rm thread. from my own observations, both here and personally, hazing can start out rather innocently, simple and mild with good intent and intentions. but it seems as if all too many times, all too often there is no one watching the watchers. and matters hit that rather slippery slope downward. and then it becomes a routine, and regimen. with reasons, rationals, and excuses. and excesses. and cover-ups. however, this is only my point of view. which, of course, is based on my observations and experiences. i know, all too well, that others have experienced life differently and see this issue differently and in a different light.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

pssst... MysticCat is not a DU...

Thanks, NA!

Originally Posted by Tinia2

at post 133 we get to the point where just about every thread in rm gets to. hazing is hazing is hazing. good vs evil. what is the real point of it and what is the real definition of it.

As we've discussed on GC before, I think this gets to the real crux of the issue and to why general hazing discussions so often go nowhere. There is no agreed upon definition of hazing. We have some people who define hazing as things like forced consumption of large amounts of alcohol but not, say, being required to drive for brothers, We have others who define hazing as anything that distinguishes between pledges/new members and initiated members, including forbidding new members from wearing letters. And then we have the the full spectrum in between, including those who distinguish between "permissible" hazing and "impermissible" hazing.

It doesn't help for the purposes of this kind of discussion to say "look at legal definitions" or school/GLO policies -- they're all over the map, too.

As a result, we end up talking past each other.

[one800thekiller]

first of all....this biggest problem with hazing is that the word hazing....is defined so loosely......

what could be considered hazing on a strict campus could be overlooked completely on another.....


I mean..where can you really draw that line?

I would argue that the line is crossed when personal safety is at stake.....to a fairly high degree....

and even with that as the definition there is so much leeway.....

But I am a firm believer that people do have a choice in there actions.....and if they start to haze....no one is stopping you from leaving?

[one800thekiller]

nope

no one knows what your sayin crazy...because you aren't speaking english

your speaking some kind of ghetto gibberish there dude

Originally Posted by one800thekiller

nope

no one knows what your sayin crazy...because you aren't speaking english

your speaking some kind of ghetto gibberish there dude

At least he knows how to properly use a period.

Your (possessive) is not the same as You're (You Are).

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by one800thekiller

first of all....this biggest problem with hazing is that the word hazing....is defined so loosely......

what could be considered hazing on a strict campus could be overlooked completely on another.....


I mean..where can you really draw that line?

I would argue that the line is crossed when personal safety is at stake.....to a fairly high degree....

and even with that as the definition there is so much leeway.....

But I am a firm believer that people do have a choice in there actions.....and if they start to haze....no one is stopping you from leaving?

I would have to disagree with that statement. Hazing can take many forms. Sure you have the physical which you seem to be referencing, but you also have sexual, emotional and mental abuse. Hazing is anything that can cause ANY harm to a person. Any harm at all, but you seem to be saying that only when great physical harm is possible. I don't understand that thinking as the other kinds could be just as damaging if not more so.

[Tom Earp]

To put it basically it is stupid and against the law!

So, when a chapter is closed as so many are because of Hazing which is against the law of many states and HQs then guess what, it must be wrong!

If some are not aware of this, how stupid does this make them?

Screw up, get caught, and get booted off of school and out of GLO!

Who is smart now?

[one800thekiller]

Meaningless Hazing is completely pointless, but not speaking from experience from the fraternity, but speaking from hazing done during my high school sports team, there is a point..........and please...define hazing...

because honestly.....hazing is just a word that gets thrown around...without a proper definition.


hazing is illegal because people aren't being responsible about it..

of course if you make someone drink an abundance of water...something bad could happen, but at the same time there are other things, that take the safety of the pledges into consideration.

And as I have stated before, no one is forcing ANYONE to do ANYTHING....if they so choose to stay and not walk out...then that is their decision.

I am not saying I am for nor against it...but i don't believe in the criminalization of it.

[one800thekiller]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

I would have to disagree with that statement. Hazing can take many forms. Sure you have the physical which you seem to be referencing, but you also have sexual, emotional and mental abuse. Hazing is anything that can cause ANY harm to a person. Any harm at all, but you seem to be saying that only when great physical harm is possible. I don't understand that thinking as the other kinds could be just as damaging if not more so.

I will agree that mental(which is emotional) and sexual(which is a possibility i didn't take into consideration when writing my previous post) could be just as damaging.


The mental "damage" is ..quite literally all in your head.
The only time i could see that as permanent damage to a person is if you don't complete the pledge process....if you have...and your brothers except you as a brother...you realize WHY the pledge process is what it is

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by one800thekiller

I will agree that mental(which is emotional) and sexual(which is a possibility i didn't take into consideration when writing my previous post) could be just as damaging.


The mental "damage" is ..quite literally all in your head.
The only time i could see that as permanent damage to a person is if you don't complete the pledge process....if you have...and your brothers except you as a brother...you realize WHY the pledge process is what it is

So "mental damage" is ok as long as you are initiated and the "reasons" are explained to you?

I think that your overall argument is weak and you should probably just give up.

PS - it's ACCEPT, not except.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by one800thekiller

I will agree that mental(which is emotional) and sexual(which is a possibility i didn't take into consideration when writing my previous post) could be just as damaging.


The mental "damage" is ..quite literally all in your head.
The only time i could see that as permanent damage to a person is if you don't complete the pledge process....if you have...and your brothers except you as a brother...you realize WHY the pledge process is what it is

You're right. The mental damage IS in your head. That's why it's called MENTAL damage.

And permanent damage or not, it is hurting someone. You'd be surprised at how many people that can affect. Just because it didn't hurt you doesn't mean it isn't hurting someone else. And a lot of people won't say anything. And do you want to know why? Because you're guys, and you're taught not to show any emotion, and you're afraid to share feelings with other guys.

But I guarantee that there are guys, probably in your fraternity, who have been hurt by hazing. Because I've seen it happen, and I've had guys come to me to talk about it. And while they don't tell me exactly what is involved in the program, they are clearly upset about it, whether they get into the fraternity or not.

[PrettyBoy]

[blkwebman1919]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

As we've discussed on GC before, I think this gets to the real crux of the issue and to why general hazing discussions so often go nowhere. There is no agreed upon definition of hazing. We have some people who define hazing as things like forced consumption of large amounts of alcohol but not, say, being required to drive for brothers, We have others who define hazing as anything that distinguishes between pledges/new members and initiated members, including forbidding new members from wearing letters. And then we have the the full spectrum in between, including those who distinguish between "permissible" hazing and "impermissible" hazing.

It doesn't help for the purposes of this kind of discussion to say "look at legal definitions" or school/GLO policies -- they're all over the map, too.

As a result, we end up talking past each other.

MysticCat's statements are right on target. This is the real argument at the heart of the issue.
(BUMPing this post for emphasis before it got lost in the proverbial "shuffle")...

[one800thekiller]

Originally Posted by ree-Xi

So "mental damage" is ok as long as you are initiated and the "reasons" are explained to you?

I think that your overall argument is weak and you should probably just give up.

PS - it's ACCEPT, not except.

Mental damage is a joke.....
That is all their is too it. It is a joke.
The only people who are against the hazing are the ones that can't take it.
Hazing has been around as long as Collegiate Greeks, and it isn't going anywhere.
The fact that prissy boys can't cut it as a pledge, and resort to turning a fraternity in is nothing more than sad.
You want to build brotherly bonds, you have to sacrifice something.

Pledging isn't supposed to be easy......
It is supposed to be challenging, mentally and physically.

In all honesty....even a chapter who meaninglessly hazes, just because is still more than likely does less damage to a pledge, both physically and mentally) than what a new recruit from the army gets going through basic.

So, to wrap my little rant up, I will leave you with a quote...from ..fight club...

"It is not until we have lost everything, that we are truly free to do anything."