Non-social GLOs...do you honestly consider us fellow Greeks?

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by PSK480
I hate to seem mean. But it seems more like you are trying to prove a point to those of us who are in a social GLO. You want to be seen as a fellow greek and a peer. But Honorary GLOs and social GLOs are 2 different beasts.

You don't seem mean at all, PSK480 -- you just appear not to have read the thread. I don't think anyone ever said anything about honorary GLO's. The gist of this thread has concerned what might be called "special interest" GLO's -- primarily the music GLO's, some of which are classified professional fraternities and some of which are classified as social fraternities -- and the service GLO's like AFW or GSS.

If I may so kindly offer some advice, don't try to argue your point to people who are deeply rooted in their ideas, b/c you won't change any minds. If anything you will make people more stuborn, angry, and even resentful of you.

Gee, I wish someone had told me that before I went to law school. Here I was thinking that discussion, debate and even argument can be tools to help people understand one another better and {gasp} maybe even change their minds -- provided, of course, that the minds in question are open, even if just a little.

[KappaKittyCat]

At my school we have 1300 students, 10% Greek participation (that's IFC/Panhel, those who are registered with the Greek Advisor), 5 IFC fraternities, and 3 NPC sororities, as well as chapters of SAI and Sinfonia. It's not the IFC/Panhel Greeks who exclude SAI and Sinfonia. It's they who alienate themselves from us. SAI's really much worse about it than Sinfonia.

It's common knowledge on our campus about the SAI/Sinfonia single sex Title IX social thingie... common knowledge amongst IFC/Panhel, that is. SAI/Sinfonia deny it. They insist that they're "professional" and therefore are far superior to us social groups.

For choir concerts, where we are to wear black with "tasteful" jewelry, most GLO members wear their badges. I was asked to take mine off. I said that I would only if the SAI members had to as well, and this caused a big row. (I won when a Delta Gamma who's also an SAI said that she thought it ridiculous that she had to take off her anchor but could leave her SAI badge, and that she wouldn't wear one without the other.) The prejudice against members of sororities in particular at the Conservatory of Music is extreme and unreasonable. The only way a member of an NPC group can redeem herself is to also join SAI.

SAI schedules its recruitment meetings during our Formal Recruitment parties. Their "dirty rushing" is far worse than any NPC group on campus. SAI's go around trashing NPC groups, telling freshmen before our deferred FR that they shouldn't join a social sorority, but a Professional Fraternity. They rip our signs down or put theirs up over ours. They schedule events on top of ours. We've invited them to do mixers with us, which they decline because they're not social. This year IFC/Panhel asked SAI and Sinfonia to join in Greek Week (which, btw, is a free event at our school). Delta Gamma invited them to have teams for Anchor Splash (on our campus, everyone from GLO's to athletic teams to dorms have Anchor Splash teams). Each declined, turned up their collective noses, and said, "We're not Greek. We're not social." We've extended the olive branch to them many times and they've declined.

The funny thing is... I went to SAI/Sinfonia formal with a Sinfonian this winter. Whereas our formals are either dry or the alcohol consumption is closely monitored, theirs was sodden with liquor. Everyone was drunk, including many underage people. I was ignored by most SAI's all night. Another Kappa sister with a Sinfonian date had the same problem. I've never felt so uncomfortable in a group in my life. To top that, SAI has 5 times the membership of Kappa and at least double the membership of other NPC chapters on campus [see my other postings for more about my chapter's membership struggles]. However, we get 5 times as much stuff done as they do. We contribute more dollars and hours to philanthropy and have an overall higher GPA.

The sad thing is that many of our newest members have friends who went SAI and they would make fabulous Kappas. Ditto for the other groups on campus. We could do much better for both groups, NPC's and SAI, if we'd join forces and not wage war on each other all the time. I guess the most we can do is keep trying. A lot of the SAI's who are the "worst" in this regard have graduated or will be this year, so perhaps we'll be able to change attitudes.

[PSK480]

I'm sorry I should hav clarified. I was responding to SAIRose's original post. On my campus SAI is seen as an honorary, just like TBS, and Kappa Kappa Psi. Where they do not report to either PanHell or IFC. Yet, Phi Mu Alpha on the other hand is grouped with social because they are members of the campus IFC. So, to me they are most special interest GLOs are honorary b/c they act as ones at my university. I was speaking from my own experience from my university.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by KappaKittyCat (in part)
At my school we have 1300 students, 10% Greek participation (that's IFC/Panhel, those who are registered with the Greek Advisor), 5 IFC fraternities, and 3 NPC sororities, as well as chapters of SAI and Sinfonia. It's not the IFC/Panhel Greeks who exclude SAI and Sinfonia. It's they who alienate themselves from us. SAI's really much worse about it than Sinfonia.

It's common knowledge on our campus about the SAI/Sinfonia single sex Title IX social thingie... common knowledge amongst IFC/Panhel, that is. SAI/Sinfonia deny it. They insist that they're "professional" and therefore are far superior to us social groups.

. . . This year IFC/Panhel asked SAI and Sinfonia to join in Greek Week (which, btw, is a free event at our school). Delta Gamma invited them to have teams for Anchor Splash (on our campus, everyone from GLO's to athletic teams to dorms have Anchor Splash teams). Each declined, turned up their collective noses, and said, "We're not Greek. We're not social." We've extended the olive branch to them many times and they've declined.

I have little experience with SAI (we didn't have a chapter at my school when I was there), so I'll limit more or less my response to Phi Mu Alpha. What you describe isn't necessarily common or the rule across the country, but it isn't uncommon either -- unfortunately.

Phi Mu Alpha's history has given it what might be termed something of an identity crisis. It was founded as a social fraternity for musicians , who often were at schools (primarily conservatories) where there were not any students of other disciplines or where interaction with students of other disciplines was limited.

Over the years, the fraternity moved more into the "professional" arena. We helped form the Professional Fraternity Association and called ourselves "The Professional Fraternity for Men in Music." This was partly due to the demographics of the fraternity -- many if not most members, and all national leadership were professional musicians -- and partly, as the 60's and 70's with their anti-establishment atmosphere approached, as a result of the belief that the fraternity would only survive if it differentiated itself from social fraternities. I think many today would say that those who took us down that road meant well, but moved us away from our roots and the basis of our brotherhood.

In the 80's, the National Assembly of Phi Mu Alpha made the decision to officially return to social status. As you note, it was the desire to remain single sex that spurred this decision. But the decision would not have been made, I don't think, if many brothers -- particularly collegiate brothers -- had not felt that we really were truly social, that professional classification did not fit us. The fact is that we had always had more in common with social fraternities than with professional fraternities. Title IX was the excuse to move us back where many thought we belonged.

Some old habits die hard, though. Some chapters still refer to Sinfonia as a "professional fraternity," even when Nationial says "no we're not." Barriers built by years of separation from other GLO's campus are not broken down overnight. Some Sinfonia chapters have been on their campuses longer than other social GLO's because they were chartered when their schools only allowed professional GLO's (and when Sinfonia was classified as "professional"). Some chapters have a true superiority complex such as you describe -- "we're not like other fraternities." (I notice in another post you commented that yours is a fairly anti-Green campus. Perhaps that contributes to the unfortunate "we're not really Greek" attitude.) The fact that many music schools/departments still maintain some distance from the rest of the school doesn't help. I think such chapters are shooting themselves in the foot with this kind of attitude.

Elsewhere, however, chapters are joining their campus's IFC's (like at PSK480's school -- and sorry PSK480 if I came on too strong on my response to you) and are participating fully in their school's Greek life. Reports are that, as a general rule, such chapters are finding that their recruitment and chapter life otherwise is improving as a result. My understanding is that National is actively considering joining the NIC.

Yes, I guess we would be a special interest social GLO, much like Triangle, Farmhouse, AGR, or SA. But unlike some of those groups, we do not limit membership to students in any particular majors -- you just have to love music.

The bottom line is what has been said in this thread quite a few times by quite a few people: Phi Mu Alpha is a social fraternity. On some campuses, its chapters particpate fully in social Greek life, on other campuses, they don't. Some chapters are still stuck in the 1970's. Some chapters want to get out of the 70's but haven't figured out how yet. So whether Sinfonians would be "honestly considered fellow Greeks" by NIC, NPC, or NPHC groups will depend on the specific campus in question.

Sorry to run on so long. Good luck at your school this year, hope things look up for Kappa (cheers to Kappa -- Ms. MysticCat is one) and for Sinfonia!

[KappaKittyCat]

Thanks for the insight into Phi Mu Alpha, MysticCat81 (and lots of Kappa love to Mrs. MysticCat81). I'm going to suggest to our social chair (who happens to be one of my lovely little sisses) that we do our best to involve Phi Mu Alpha more this coming year.

My question for you RedRose, DZSAI, and all other wearers of the Pipes of Pan out there on GC is this:

Both my chapter and campus Panhellenic would love to welcome SAI into more of an involvement with Panhel. (Note: we in no way wish to force them into membership of our campus panhellenic or bind them to our rules. We just want peace.) We really feel that we'd be stronger if we shared in each other's membership pools. Besides, there's really no reason to be at war with each other. Since women can be members of both, we shouldn't be competing. Does that make sense? How would you suggest that we go about bringing them into the Greek community?

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by KappaKittyCat
Thanks for the insight into Phi Mu Alpha, MysticCat81 (and lots of Kappa love to Mrs. MysticCat81). I'm going to suggest to our social chair (who happens to be one of my lovely little sisses) that we do our best to involve Phi Mu Alpha more this coming year.

Here's a thought or two for you as a starting place, KappaKittyCat. Thanks to my contacts with Ms. MysticCat, I know that Kappa's Founders' Day (October 13) is exactly one week after ours (October 6). Some of you Kappas already seem to have some connection with Sinfonians if you went to their formal. Why don't you see if they'd like to have a social marking the respective 132nd and 104th birthdays? For something more philanthropical, ask if they plan to mark Founder's Day with a Mills Music Mission (a visit to a hospital, nursing home, or somewhere similar to sing, bring flowers, and visit). If they do, see if you can join them. Phi Mu Alpha encourages chapters to invite other Greek groups to participate in these.

Good luck!

[Dionysus]

Okay, I think I just came up with a relevant analogy, when it comes to social vs. special interest GLO's.

Men and woman are in some ways, the same. In other ways they are different. But, both want to be seen as EQUAL, hence the differences.

[sairose]

KappaKittyCat, I have PM'd you!

[dzsaigirl]

To answer your question about how we can connect SAI and the NPC's...I don't know that I am the best person to ask.

At my school (I graduated in May) the SAI chapter is pretty much the same size as the NPC chapter total on our campus. There were only 3 of us who were members of an NPC sorority. Also, 90% of our chapter was comprised of music majors. With such high music major numbers, most of the chapter is REALLY overprogrammed already. Honestly, I don't know how I did music, DZ, SAI, taught lessons, had a relationship, etc. So the SAI's promote themselves by saying that we are mostly music majors, so we are more lenient with your commitments, we don't fine, etc. This leniency makes music major girls more likely to pledge SAI than an NPC since they are convinced they will not be able to miss things for their musical engagements (um...it's school...of course they would let you miss!). Also, since there are so many music majors in it, they feel exclusive because they have that common bond, plus, at our school the music department had a new, sparkling building complete with a large lounge and kitchen area, so there was no reason for those girls to ever leave and make friends on campus!

We social greeks did reach out to SAI (through those of us who were dual members). We invited them to do philanthropies, etc. just as others have mentioned. PMA and SAI actually participated in pushball the SECOND year we asked them after refusing the first year. That was a step.

I always told people "Sorority rush is starting soon, so if you are interested, I have applications...If you have any questions, feel free to ask". So they knew they were welcome to rush. So it wasn't that they didn't know about it. They also did not want to pay high dues. Dues for the entire semester at my chapter of SAI were $30. Of course, we never DID anything since there was never enough money, but there was never enough money 'cause nobody would vote to increase dues. So money can be an issue too.

I feel like I am rambling now. But I think maybe in my mixed up words you can find some sort of explanation as to why SAI chapters self exclude, or at least why the members of my chapter did, even though I tried to bridge the gap.

Oh, and I won't even lie...PMA at my school tries to act like they are what they "think" a social is, but seclude themselves because I handed them a campus hazing policy one semester and told them to cool it...That is one dangerous thing about this seclusion issue. The spotlight is always on social greeks, so by separating yourself, you can get away with way more shady stuff, which is what they do. I feel a slight bit of guilt for outing them like that, but...

[bets]

I'm putting this at the beginning b/c it's the crux of my post:
For a "Real Life Example", I know ASU has a 1-A football team, and so does Notre Dame or U. of Michigan, but I don't see us as equals, (I doubt anyone does ) but I know we're both football teams!

Hey SAIRose,
I'm catching on to this thread late, so I hope you catch this one. I wanted to address this b/c I'm from your campus.

I do not consider us the different or the same. I don't consider this good or bad, necessarily. I guess I live in my own bubble, which consists of NPC, NPHC, and IFC groups. The 6 years I've been here at ASU, that is what I've known. I have seen SAI stuff in the FA building, but I always assumed it was an honorary org. b/c the two girls I know that are in it were Music majors (I think. I know they were something related to music)

Even further, until I got on this greekchat board, I never even considered that GLO's that were non NPC, NPHC, or IFC would consider themselves like us. I was "enlightened" to the fact that org's like yours related to us.

So what does that mean when it comes to your question? I guess it means that I have not considered your org as a fellow greek, but only because I do not have contact with your org in the way I have contact with the 8 frats, 4 other sororities, and the 9 NPHC orgs. (like dropins, philanthropic events, RUSH Homecoming, Greek week, etc.) If you were to participate in things like this with me, I would consider you as a fellow greek.

That being said, I still consider you a greek organization. I was not aware until this thread that you have recruitment, pledging, etc. That's because I thought your org. was honorary. If you look in ASU's undergrad bulletin, you would see that SAI, PMA, etc. are listed as honorary/professional orgs. Phi Mu, KA, AKA, etc. are listed as Social Orgs.

But I've read most, but not all, of this thread, and I found the point made that ya'll aren't under our umbrella-org's (NPC). One of the NPC rules is that you can't be in more than one. So that, by nature, makes us competitive in spirit. Since your org. isn't in that "competition," I don't see it as the same. SEE REAL LIFE EXAMPLE AT BEGINNING

As far as people treating you as lesser than us, I hope that wasn't the case for any of my girls, let alone any "Greek" on campus. I personally don't consider anyone that has the gumption to get out there, find a group that they relate to, take pride in it, and have a hell of a time doing it, as lesser. I applaud anyone that does it! What else is this life for? But I wonder, would any of you on campus consider also joining one of our social orgs? If not, does that mean that you perceive our org's as different?

Lord, I'll keep going unless I stop. Basically SAIRose, I am glad that you have found the sisterhood you have. I think it's cool as hell, and I would never degrade it intentionally, and hopefully, never unintentionally. Some of us are just naive, I guess.

[Kevin]

I can safely say that the SAI chapter at my school is definitely not the same as NPC sororities.. But not so different either.

They have certain ummm practices that would threaten the charter of an NPC org (my friend's wife pledged and I know a little of what goes on there).

Their biggest recruiters are teachers in the music department.... And I don't know of a single person that is in both a regular sorority and SAI... I don't think they necessarily bill themselves as the "anti-sorority" -- but music majors up til recently have not been greek... PKA somehow bridged that gap though on the men's side.

Yes they're Greek (if that's what you call yourself than who am I to say otherwise?)... But Greek in the same sense that I am, I'd say not.

[sairose]

So what does that mean when it comes to your question? I guess it means that I have not considered your org as a fellow greek, but only because I do not have contact with your org in the way I have contact with the 8 frats, 4 other sororities, and the 9 NPHC orgs. (like dropins, philanthropic events, RUSH Homecoming, Greek week, etc.) If you were to participate in things like this with me, I would consider you as a fellow greek.

That being said, I still consider you a greek organization. I was not aware until this thread that you have recruitment, pledging, etc. That's because I thought your org. was honorary. If you look in ASU's undergrad bulletin, you would see that SAI, PMA, etc. are listed as honorary/professional orgs. Phi Mu, KA, AKA, etc. are listed as Social Orgs.

I think that is a very good point! Most people assume that because we are an academic fraternity, that we are honorary and do not have ritual, pledging, etc. I think this is part of why many don't consider us "greek".

As far as people treating you as lesser than us, I hope that wasn't the case for any of my girls, let alone any "Greek" on campus.
No, no Phi Mu has ever said anything negative about SAI(not to my face, anyways ) Unfortunately, a few Greeks on campus did treat us as lesser...as far as which group, I won't tell so I won't get myself in trouble.

I personally don't consider anyone that has the gumption to get out there, find a group that they relate to, take pride in it, and have a hell of a time doing it, as lesser. I applaud anyone that does it!

Very well put. We work hard, we have common bonds, and we love our GLO.

What else is this life for? But I wonder, would any of you on campus consider also joining one of our social orgs? If not, does that mean that you perceive our org's as different?

I think it depends on the member. One of our members in fact used to be a Phi Mu...we also had a member who is now a Phi Mu but who is inactive with SAI. I myself had considered joining a social sorority, but couldn't afford it, and didn't have the time for 2 GLOs. But yes, I would say some SAIs would consider joining both, however, most of our members don't. We consider social GLOs "different" in some respects--you don't have an academic base, your dues cost more, you do more activities, etc. However, we consider you all much the same--you have ritual, rush, pledging, big and lil sisters, etc etc. If you go in Zues' Place you'll find our merchandise on the same shelves. So we consider ourselves to be different and also the same.


Lord, I'll keep going unless I stop. Basically SAIRose, I am glad that you have found the sisterhood you have. I think it's cool as hell, and I would never degrade it intentionally, and hopefully, never unintentionally. Some of us are just naive, I guess. [/B][/QUOTE]

[bets]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sairose

I think it depends on the member. One of our members in fact used to be a Phi Mu...we also had a member who is now a Phi Mu but who is inactive with SAI. I myself had considered joining a social sorority, but couldn't afford it, and didn't have the time for 2 GLOs. But yes, I would say some SAIs would consider joining both, however, most of our members don't. We consider social GLOs "different" in some respects--you don't have an academic base, your dues cost more, you do more activities, etc. However, we consider you all much the same--you have ritual, rush, pledging, big and lil sisters, etc etc. If you go in Zues' Place you'll find our merchandise on the same shelves. So we consider ourselves to be different and also the same.



I know of 2 girls that would have probably been in SAI and Phi Mu. (Emily and Audra) I really liked both of them, and I wish they were still Phi Mu's. I guess in their case they liked their other activities (probably SAI included) more than us. I am wondering, though, who is the Phi Mu that is inactive in SAI? That perked my interest.

I've got to mention, though, that the NPC sororities on our campus, all have over a 3.0 gpa. (between 3.012 and 3.42!!) This is with groups ranging from 30-100 women! We are very academically based, but we aren't related to one field of study.

I have seen your stuff in Zeus's Place, along with the other special interest GLO's. More power to ya. It doesn't bother me at all to see your letters on campus. But now I'll be making a point to find out more about yall!

[sairose]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bets

Originally posted by sairose


I know of 2 girls that would have probably been in SAI and Phi Mu. (Emily and Audra) I really liked both of them, and I wish they were still Phi Mu's. I guess in their case they liked their other activities (probably SAI included) more than us. I am wondering, though, who is the Phi Mu that is inactive in SAI? That perked my interest.

Yes, I was talking about Emily and Audra. Isn't Emily still a Phi Mu? I thought she was...I really like her. I used to go to her church. I don't really know why Audra isn't still a Phi Mu; I haven't heard her say much about Phi Mu except that they have a really pretty badge, and maybe a few other random things.

I've got to mention, though, that the NPC sororities on our campus, all have over a 3.0 gpa. (between 3.012 and 3.42!!) This is with groups ranging from 30-100 women! We are very academically based, but we aren't related to one field of study.

I never thought of that before, but you have a point! And don't y'all have study hall for new members and things like that? I guess in some respects then, social GLOs ARE very academic. Thanks for pointing that out!

I have seen your stuff in Zeus's Place, along with the other special interest GLO's. More power to ya. It doesn't bother me at all to see your letters on campus. But now I'll be making a point to find out more about yall!

Hey, I think that's really great! I get frustrated by the lack of support that some people have for groups on campus like Sigma Alpha Iota and Tau Beta Sigma. It's refreshing to have someone back us up in our efforts. If you want to learn more about SAI, go to the national page at http://www.sai-national.org or to our chapter site at http://www.geocities.com/sai_epsilongamma

Thanks for the support. I hope in the future, more SAI greeks can consider us as a fellow Greek.

[PhiSigGabs]

I'm sorry but I have to say that I consider the non social "greeks" not to be affiliated directly with the greek system. We have several of those non social groups at my school and nobody ever hears from them or anythign about them basically. I would have never known they existed if i hadn't stumbled over their website on my college's home page. If they chose to be more social I think people would give them more of a chance.

~Rebecca


"It's a PHI SIG thing!"