Hostage situation in Russia

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ktsnake
So you're saying that it's just by coincidence that about 99% of these terrorist acts are carried out by Muslims?

Can you not admit that there is something fundamentally flawed in the thinking of many people that share your religon?

I can certainly admit that the Crusaders who shared my religion and those who carried out the Spanish Inquisition were Catholic and at the time, there was something fundamentally wrong with my Church.

There are Muslim churches in the US that preach against the West and still consider the destruction of the World Trade Center to be a great day.

And you say these acts are not supported by your religion. That may be true. But there are factions within your religion who would disagree.

Many Muslims have different criteria for being in their religion. Many Sunnis says Shiites aren't Muslim. Many Muslims say these people who order jihads and terrorist acts aren't Muslim. One thing remains; they see themselves as Muslims regardless of someone saying they don't think they're Muslims and "they" are a sizable population that can't be dismissed.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by ktsnake
So you're saying that it's just by coincidence that about 99% of these terrorist acts are carried out by Muslims?

Can you not admit that there is something fundamentally flawed in the thinking of many people that share your religon?

I can certainly admit that the Crusaders who shared my religion and those who carried out the Spanish Inquisition were Catholic and at the time, there was something fundamentally wrong with my Church.

There are Muslim churches in the US that preach against the West and still consider the destruction of the World Trade Center to be a great day.

And you say these acts are not supported by your religion. That may be true. But there are factions within your religion who would disagree.

Alright I hate to wade in, as I'm sure I'll draw flak from some, but I have to agree with _Opi_... there has been an overwhelming tendancy to equate terrorism with Islam, as if they are the sole perpertrators of horror.

Let us never forget that Christianity has inflicted some truely evil acts in the past century, and past decade for that matter, on others that don't fit their view of the world. Now to draw on past examples... let's see the KKK I believe uses Christianity as a cover for hatred and ignorance... but do the people involved represent Christians? Hell No! Alright how about a more recent example... hmm lets think about the former Yugoslavia for a moment... Serbs commited many horrible acts in the name of Religion and Nationalism, but people always seem to equate those acts with Nationalism or Ethnic tensions, not religion. Every religion has factions within that are so twisted in their fanatical devotion to their "beliefs", do these groups represent the religion though? No.... why should the actions of a few colour our beliefs about the whole?

[Rudey]

Right now this issue is about Islam. There are Arab fighters in Chechnya because of Islam.

-Rudey

Originally posted by RACooper
Alright I hate to wade in, as I'm sure I'll draw flak from some, but I have to agree with _Opi_... there has been an overwhelming tendancy to equate terrorism with Islam, as if they are the sole perpertrators of horror.

Let us never forget that Christianity has inflicted some truely evil acts in the past century, and past decade for that matter, on others that don't fit their view of the world. Now to draw on past examples... let's see the KKK I believe uses Christianity as a cover for hatred and ignorance... but do the people involved represent Christians? Hell No! Alright how about a more recent example... hmm lets think about the former Yugoslavia for a moment... Serbs commited many horrible acts in the name of Religion and Nationalism, but people always seem to equate those acts with Nationalism or Ethnic tensions, not religion. Every religion has factions within that are so twisted in their fanatical devotion to their "beliefs", do these groups represent the religion though? No.... why should the actions of a few colour our beliefs about the whole?

[IowaStatePhiPsi]

Originally posted by ktsnake
It's unfortunate, but Russia can't afford to give these guys what they want. If they do, two more schools will be taken over tommorow.

I say they simply execute the people that these guys want released. Then, their hostage situation becomes a moot point.

So you're saying kill off a few people so that the 350 children in the school are killed? wow

[Rudey]

I stand by the Russians and hope they are able to secure the release of the hostages and eliminate the terrorists. On this I hope they finally start opening up to foreign aid because several countries have experience dealing with these types of situations. If this turns out like the theatre incident or even the submarine incident (not terrorism but they refused foreign aid) it will be incredibly sad.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
I stand by the Russians and hope they are able to secure the release of the hostages and eliminate the terrorists. On this I hope they finally start opening up to foreign aid because several countries have experience dealing with these types of situations. If this turns out like the theatre incident or even the submarine incident (not terrorism but they refused foreign aid) it will be incredibly sad.

-Rudey

If they open-up to foreign aid that might mean having to answer questions they don't want asked about the terrorists motivation in this case...

[_Opi_]

Originally posted by Rudey
Many Muslims have different criteria for being in their religion. Many Sunnis says Shiites aren't Muslim. Many Muslims say these people who order jihads and terrorist acts aren't Muslim. One thing remains; they see themselves as Muslims regardless of someone saying they don't think they're Muslims and "they" are a sizable population that can't be dismissed.

-Rudey

Muslims on earth: 1,678,422,000 (1998 stats, probably more now)
Countries with muslim populations: Almost all

Islam is the second largest religion in the world

Largest muslim population in the world
1. Indonesia
2. Pakistan
3. India
4. Bangladesh
5. Turkey
6. Iran
7. Egypt*
8. Nigeria
9. Algeria*
10. Morocco*

Only 3 out of the top 10 are arabized countries in Africa

Yes we have sects. So do Christians and so do Jews. We have extremists in every religion.


Every guerrila, rebel, criminal who is happens to be muslim today is labelled terrorist. How many muslim leaders are there? inconsequential to how many civilian and peaceful muslims there are in the world. If Islam propogates violence and we were all criminals, then there would be noone else in the world but muslims, because there are a BILLION OF US, everywhere. For you to link religion to such criminals who conduct acts not even SANCTIONED in Islam, is ridiculous and you know it. You are either being hard-headed, ignorant or just plain IDIOTIC to think that.

You need to stop this anti-Islam propoganda you are spreading in GC, its wrong, and its prejudiced. Maybe this is the only audience you have? Yeah, I really think so.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by _Opi_
Muslims on earth: 1,678,422,000 (1998 stats, probably more now)
Countries with muslim populations: Almost all

Islam is the second largest religion in the world

Largest muslim population in the world
1. Indonesia
2. Pakistan
3. India
4. Bangladesh
5. Turkey
6. Iran
7. Egypt*
8. Nigeria
9. Algeria*
10. Morocco*

Only 3 out of the top 10 are arabized countries in Africa

Yes we have sects. So do Christians and so do Jews. We have extremists in every religion.


Every guerrila, rebel, criminal who is happens to be muslim today is labelled terrorist. How many muslim leaders are there? inconsequential to how many civilian and peaceful muslims there are in the world. If Islam propogates violence and we were all criminals, then there would be noone else in the world but muslims, because there are a BILLION OF US, everywhere. For you to link religion to such criminals who conduct acts not even SANCTIONED in Islam, is ridiculous and you know it. You are either being hard-headed, ignorant or just plain IDIOTIC to think that.

You need to stop this anti-Islam propoganda you are spreading in GC, its wrong, and its prejudiced. Maybe this is the only audience you have? Yeah, I really think so.

Listen racist (I can call you names too right?),
they are Muslims and they believe their acts are sanctioned by their religion. You can talk and talk about how they aren't Muslims but at the end of the day they are Muslims.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
If they open-up to foreign aid that might mean having to answer questions they don't want asked about the terrorists motivation in this case...

Possibly.

-Rudey

[Kevin]

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi
So you're saying kill off a few people so that the 350 children in the school are killed? wow

You have to see the bigger picture here. The Russians cannot and should not give in to the demands of these thugs. If they do, it will open up the floodgates for these terrorists to push the government around. It would practically guarantee this would happen again many times.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by RACooper
Alright I hate to wade in, as I'm sure I'll draw flak from some, but I have to agree with _Opi_... there has been an overwhelming tendancy to equate terrorism with Islam, as if they are the sole perpertrators of horror.

Let us never forget that Christianity has inflicted some truely evil acts in the past century, and past decade for that matter, on others that don't fit their view of the world. Now to draw on past examples... let's see the KKK I believe uses Christianity as a cover for hatred and ignorance... but do the people involved represent Christians? Hell No! Alright how about a more recent example... hmm lets think about the former Yugoslavia for a moment... Serbs commited many horrible acts in the name of Religion and Nationalism, but people always seem to equate those acts with Nationalism or Ethnic tensions, not religion. Every religion has factions within that are so twisted in their fanatical devotion to their "beliefs", do these groups represent the religion though? No.... why should the actions of a few colour our beliefs about the whole?

Did I say that Muslims were the ONLY source of terrorism?
-- No. In fact, I acknowledge the Crusades, the Inquisition, many acts of the IRA were perpetrated by members of my faith. I'm saying that their view of the religion and what was justified was wrong, but they were still of the same faith.

Ask any one in whose name Bin Ladin's men flew into the WTC. Yeah, I know they're dead. If they were alive, do you not think their answer would be "Allah"?

I don't think that anyone here is saying that ALL Muslims are terrorists and support it. No one said that, yet it seems to be the point you're arguing against.

I think our point (and I don't necessarily speak for anyone else) is that there seems to be a particular group within Islam who believes that terrorism is the way to solve the world's problems. Their religion is Jihad, murder and intimidation. A bastardization of Islam? Ask them, they will tell you no.

If you want to do a survey of the people that support the methods that terrorists use to achieve any end, how many of them do you think will be Christian? Buddhist? Jewish? I doubt there is any actual data on this, but I think we all know what the answer would be.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Rudey
Many Muslims have different criteria for being in their religion. Many Sunnis says Shiites aren't Muslim. Many Muslims say these people who order jihads and terrorist acts aren't Muslim. One thing remains; they see themselves as Muslims regardless of someone saying they don't think they're Muslims and "they" are a sizable population that can't be dismissed.

-Rudey

That's what I'm saying.

Unfortunately, the people arguing agains this don't understand the difference between "some" and "all".

And there is also the misunderstanding of what a Muslim is. I think the only fair way to determine that would be to consider whether or not a person considers themselves to be a Muslim. If they do, then they are. What other standard could we/should we use?

[_Opi_]

ktsnake,

Since when do you give credit to what terrorists are saying? If they tell you they are saints and are going to heaven if they kill, say a child, would you believe a word? Yet you are willing to believe the fact that they say they are true muslims. They manupilate and distort the religion for their political/national gains. If you think about it, even these disfunct groups are not that SIZABLE. look at MUSLIM population, then look at the terrorist numbers...they are no where near a SIZABLE amount.


Like RACooper said, its like blaming Christianity for producing the KKK.

And actually the word terrorists have be popularized after september 11, and looks like its only reserved for muslim rebels, guerillas, political opposition groups, etc, etc......


Hey, there are terrorists here in America who are christian and caucasian...there are terrorists in South America, etc etc.....we just don't call them terrorists!


Please stop blaming Islam as a faith for the world's problems.

[Rudey]

Listen, reading comprehension and logic are very easy. Try to follow.

They are Muslim. Islam doesn't have some huge structure where one Imam or Mufti says this is what happens and this is what is accepted by Islam. Sunnis reject the beliefs of Shiites just like many Baptists may reject the beliefs of Catholics. At the end of the day they are Muslims just like Catholics consider themselves Christian.

Again, they are Muslim.

Let me repeat this. They are Muslim.

Nobody blamed Islam for the world's problems, but let me repeat, much of these Muslim terrorists consider themselves Muslim regardless of what you say and there is a large population often funded by Arab governments that agrees.

-Rudey

Originally posted by _Opi_
ktsnake,

Since when do you give credit to what terrorists are saying? If they tell you they are saints and are going to heaven if they kill, say a child, would you believe a word? Yet you are willing to believe the fact that they say they are true muslims. They manupilate and distort the religion for their political/national gains. If you think about it, even these disfunct groups are not that SIZABLE. look at MUSLIM population, then look at the terrorist numbers...they are no where near a SIZABLE amount.


Like RACooper said, its like blaming Christianity for producing the KKK.

And actually the word terrorists have be popularized after september 11, and looks like its only reserved for muslim rebels, guerillas, political opposition groups, etc, etc......


Hey, there are terrorists here in America who are christian and caucasian...there are terrorists in South America, etc etc.....we just don't call them terrorists!


Please stop blaming Islam as a faith for the world's problems.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by _Opi_
ktsnake,

Since when do you give credit to what terrorists are saying? If they tell you they are saints and are going to heaven if they kill, say a child, would you believe a word? Yet you are willing to believe the fact that they say they are true muslims. They manupilate and distort the religion for their political/national gains. If you think about it, even these disfunct groups are not that SIZABLE. look at MUSLIM population, then look at the terrorist numbers...they are no where near a SIZABLE amount.


Like RACooper said, its like blaming Christianity for producing the KKK.

And actually the word terrorists have be popularized after september 11, and looks like its only reserved for muslim rebels, guerillas, political opposition groups, etc, etc......


Hey, there are terrorists here in America who are christian and caucasian...there are terrorists in South America, etc etc.....we just don't call them terrorists!


Please stop blaming Islam as a faith for the world's problems.

So you're denying that these are Muslims? On whose authority? I will acknowledge that members of the KKK, IRA, the Crusades, etc. were Christians. The members of the KKK are great examples because they actually disdained Catholics and considered us unamerican. That doesn't change the fact that they are Christian.

It sounds like we're getting hung up on the definition of "is" here. I defined what I consider to be a Muslim and what most people consider to be a Muslim -- that's anyone that claims that they are a Muslim. Did I say they were representative of ALL Muslims? Nope.

Did I say they were representative of a fair number of Muslims? Like the poor, innocent Palestinians dancing in the streets when they heard about the WTC? Yes.

It's all about how you define the word "is", isn't it?