What is Kappa Kappa Psi?

[psi_chotic02]

Ive seen alot of opinions......ive seen alot of ideas....
Its weird how people can accept their own opinion but wont listen to others.....Im not tryin to persuade you....im just tryin to inform you of my OPINION.......
you know, a DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.......seeing something in ANOTHER LIGHT....
I am not one to cause or fuel discord among my brethren but i do have strong emotions on the subject of my fraternity.
I went through HELL and HIGH WATER to get into this frat. which is more than SOME of you can say for yourselves.(paper..)
YES I AM A BROTHER. and i didnt have to go back to the internet or my pledge book to know my purposes OR my foundation.
I have no problem with coming together for oen central cause for the betterment of bands.......It's when I try to incorporate the other aspects of our frat. into the mix and then there's an obvious difference. SHE isnt just one of the guys......WHY?......cause she's not a guy. NOT and NEVER will be.....Im not able to look at a female and view her as one of the guys....and i know im not the only one. Frankly, that causes our bruhs to have to go out and join other orgs. to get the TRUE BROTHERHOOD. I dont care about Webster's definition. You will never look at your blood sister and call her you brother.
The founding fathers are the parents of our wonder fraternal family.....in which, brothers are created.........You would be a liar to say that a male wouldnt be your first assumption. This is the way it was meant, and this is the way it should be.
PROOF:
Bohumil Makovsky was a 33rd degree Mason. Research Masonry.......
There are 2 dominant orgs. = O.E.S. & Freemasonry
O.E.S. is a Co-ed organization but Boh wasnt apart of that.....
He was in FREEMASONRY......which is a BROTHERHOOD.....and consists of only male members........
and if you think that his involvment with masonry has nothing to with it....then you dont even know why our colors are Blue and White!!!.....Blue & White are the two main Masonic colors...
Read it and weep...
I love yall ...........AEA.........

[WCUgirl]

Hey! Look who finally decided to join us again!

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 Its weird how people can accept their own opinion but wont listen to others

Pot, meet kettle.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 I went through HELL and HIGH WATER to get into this frat. which is more than SOME of you can say for yourselves.(paper..)

I'd like to know who in this thread you think is a "paper" member.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 ...when I try to incorporate the other aspects of our frat. into the mix and then there's an obvious difference.

To what aspects of our fraternity could you possibly be referring? I'm a female brother, and I was able to participate in everything. We obviously weren't the only chapter that is able to do so.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 SHE isnt just one of the guys......WHY?......cause she's not a guy. NOT and NEVER will be.....Im not able to look at a female and view her as one of the guys....

No one said you have to.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 Frankly, that causes our bruhs to have to go out and join other orgs. to get the TRUE BROTHERHOOD.

Umm, are you sure about that? How do you know they're not joining other orgs to find one that is social in nature? That's certainly what I did. Just b/c you're in KKPsi doesn't mean you can't be in other orgs as well.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 The founding fathers are the parents of our wonder fraternal family.....in which, brothers are created.........You would be a liar to say that a male wouldnt be your first assumption. This is the way it was meant, and this is the way it should be.

Did you even bother reading any of the previous posts? So what you're saying is, then, that when you hear of Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity, you're going to assume it's a group for men?

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
PROOF:
Bohumil Makovsky was a 33rd degree Mason. Research Masonry.......
There are 2 dominant orgs. = O.E.S. & Freemasonry
O.E.S. is a Co-ed organization but Boh wasnt apart of that.....
He was in FREEMASONRY......which is a BROTHERHOOD.....and consists of only male members........
and if you think that his involvment with masonry has nothing to with it....then you dont even know why our colors are Blue and White!!!.....Blue & White are the two main Masonic colors...
Read it and weep...

This, really, has nothing to do w/ anything. If you want a history lesson, see this wonderful post by Infidelicious (thanks to you, by the way! ):

Originally posted by Infidelicious
I know I'm a bit late in jumping into this conversation, but being a brother of KKPsi Alpha, I seem to remember a bit about our band's history and how there were no female members of the OAMC (now OSU) bands at the time the fraternity was founded... so, there is really no way to know how they would have organized had there been women in the band.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02 I love yall ...........AEA.........

No, you don't, b/c it's obvious from your views that you do not welcome me as your brother.


I just don't understand why you would join a co-ed organization, knowing beforehand that it was co-ed, and then complain about it being co-ed after you've been initiated. If it's that big of an issue to you, don't just piss and moan about it - do something! Why don't you call up Nationals and tell them you don't want any more women in your organization?

[bonelifer]

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
I went through HELL and HIGH WATER to get into this frat. which is more than SOME of you can say for yourselves.(paper..)

Brother while I don't necessarily agree with your line of reasoning, I was with you until you said that. Seems to me someone either A. HAS A CASE OF NEOITICE or B. NEEDS TO STEP BACK. Who the hell made you the Official Pledgemaster of Kappa Kappa Psi National Honorary Band Fraternity Inc. Seriously with that line of talk, you'd better be ready and ABLE to IDENTIFY, and CONFIRM, every Brother that has crossed into this Fraternity. The ULTIMATE POINT HERE IS: You need to get the HELL off your high horse, because it's been ridden to death.

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
The founding fathers are the parents of our wonder fraternal family.....in which, brothers are created.........You would be a liar to say that a male wouldnt be your first assumption. This is the way it was meant, and this is the way it should be. ... [/B]

Well hello, I wasn't aware that one of our founding father's nicknames was "PSI-CHOTIC02". First of all ASSumptions make an ass out of everyone. Second of all the National Archive Team has found letters by Brother "A." Andrew Frank Martin that without a doubt show he and many brothers at the time were open to allowing women into the Fraternity.

[Empress0105]

i know i am extra late in this whole convo...


but alpha chapter kkpsi, i have a question:


why is there tbs in the first place then?

if the founders were all for co-ed membership to begin with, why wasn't it co-ed from the jump once it traveled to schools that DID have female memebers?

27 years is a long time to try and say no women were around at ANY school the fraternity chartered at (that reffering to 1919 to 1946)


as a soror of tau beta sigma, at an all female chapter, i do have to say that i can see both sides of the fence.

but i also have to look at the welfare of my organization. when i hear rumors that in 50 years there will be no tbs and we will have to be associate kkpsi, i have a problem. when i see kkpsi having at times 4 times the amount of colonies than my org at schools with both men and women in the band programs, i worry. there should be no reason that SEVERAL people from the 6 active districts (cause i know of no one in that international one lol) tell me that when their school chartered the petitioning members were told they only needed kkpsi because it's be easier on paperwork, i get really pissed when i hear that.


i can only think of ONE school that has tbs but no kkpsi, that isn't in that situation due to kkpsi being suspeded.

if we are to truly be brother/sister orgs (which is what i learned wava was told to form by the members of kkpsi, a sister org), then we cant sit here and pout about dumb ish...but we also can't be blind to stats when they are in our faces...

[bonelifer]

I never said that it was widely accepted but it was on the minds of people at the time. And many prominent Brothers were for allowing women, but they wouldn't be able to do anything untill the other chapter resumed after the war. Since TBS was already created by that time, the point was moot.

As for the TBS vs KKPsi when colonizing it's really a perception on the DIRECTOR OF BANDS part. And as we all know both organizations exist by the DIRECTOR OF BANDS will and only their will. In other words it's the DIRECTOR OF BANDS choice. National Headquarters can only send paper work for both organizations and beyond that it's really down to what the DIRECTOR OF BANDS wants, PERIOD. That's not to say it's right but I'm sure many a female DIRECTOR OF BANDS has made the same decision and possibly chose Kappa Kappa Psi. Choose is the KEY WORD, it's something called freewill.

[Empress0105]

well if the point was mute, why go co ed in the first place, and dont say title 9 because there are hundreds of orgs who stayed single sex...

and im not talking about what the director of bands says..im talking about when they are TOLD that its easier to just bring one rather than both...

[bonelifer]

This is from my understanding but Title IX was only a single reason during the Biennium that each organization went CO-ED. Other reasons included some rogue(progressive) chapters I belive in Arizona were already initiating females/males and sending in the name as a first initial lastname. Another reason and the driving and final force behind such is that we are NON-PROFIT 103(c)(3) organizations and if we hadn't gone CO-ED when the National(United States) law changed later that year we would have lost that designation and would be considered taxable. Also, we aren't SOCIAL and therefore weren't protected by the blanket exemptions for Social Fraternities.

Now for the Director of Bands thing. NO ONE IS TELLING THEM IT'S EASIER. In fact you get a discount overall for colonizing both. Again it's a PERSONAL PERCEPTION by the DOB. AGAIN it all goes back to the FREEWILL of the DIRECTOR OF BANDS . At my school our DOB was KKPsi(Conway, AR), and our ADOB was TBSigma(Conway, AR). They choose to do both because they had prior knowledge. As for what can be done, probably little can be done to change the fact because the NHQ doesn't want to step on the toes of DOB's. It's truely hard enough trying to get a college where neither organization has existed before to colonize. Remember the Colonies you hear about on the National listserve are the one's that started the process and are either continuing or have finished and have became a Chapter. Many will inquire and receive the paperwork and not follow through or fail to finish the process. If you come in and push both organizations when they only want one or the other then you risk alienating them. As you may know DOB's work hard to get to the job they have and don't like someone coming into their program telling them how to run it.

[looseneck4]

What happend in Arizona was not really all that progressive...it was more of a long standing battle between brothers and sisters that ended up in a recognized co-ed chapter- a precurser to the image of our fraternity that now confuses many people today...it's happend at many chapters...I even know of a few where this family quarrel has brought its Psi chapter to the verge of extinction; folks just got tired of arguing with supposed family...and Title IX and all other non social fraternal org. regulations help keep things the way they are (whether the fraternity voted to go Co-ed or not..and yes i know it did)

As for the whole its up to the director as to if he can establish both orgs or not...THAT IS NOT ENTIERLY TRUE.....he/she may want to establish both orgs but the university can tell him NO...that's a problem at a couple of universities now..they have Psi or Tbs and the university will not allow them to establish the other due the orgs being Co-ed..they see it as why have two orgs that serve the same purpose.....

The issue of freemasonry and our fraternity is actually important (some things u think are all ours aren't)....it is a shared history with just about every other fraternity in this and other countries ...from a choice of Colors, grips, and secret passwords; it does stems from that particular organization...its just that some chapters recognize this and, well -some don't ( no big loss to them)

[Milkhakeax]

I think there's a couple problems here, this whole "who is actually better" sort of argument.

The first thing people need to remember that although our purposes are very similar and our past, present, and future is linked, it doesn't mean we need to do everything together. The last time I checked, we were incorporated in the state of Oklahoma seperately, so legally we are separate entities. Although it is important to band together and work together and cherish the bonds we have, in the end we are separate organizations and should recruit in that manner.

I don't understand this TBS mentality of "KKPsi has more colonies/chapters/members/whatever" when their success is in nowhere a sign of our independent success. I'm a Sister by the way, a male one at that. Kappa Kappa Psi's recruiting drive is a testament to it's members and leadership's drive. That's not to say TBS doesn't have the same drive, but since we are a different organization, how can we complain? Shouldn't we be deciding new techniques that will work for us?

It's not even a question of numbers really. Everytime TBS is introduced, even from Sisters, it's "the Sister chapter, Tau Beta Sigma" or something to that effect. Yes we are the Sisters, just like KKPsi is our Brothers. How many here have siblings? Do you expect your siblings to be solely introduced as "thi is my sister/brother, _____?" Even if it is someone else introducing them, not you? No, of course not! It's completely true when the Brothers introduce us as "the Sister chapter" because we are. I don't understand why Sisters willing say they are the Sister chapter with complete disregard to their own organization.

That's neither here nor there, however. To anyone who says that a man shouldn't be in Tau Beta Sigma, or a woman in Kappa Kappa Psi, that is absolutely ridiculous. I think denying anyone is ignoring what the Bonds of our organizations mean. Its that brand of ignorance that hold back both organizations from true potential, both working together and apart.

And also to anyone who says that they went through hell to get in their chapter, you're full of it. If you did, it's called hazing and should never happen, and no ritual, in any GLO is all that hard to go through. Mason ritual isn't that hard to get through, and that's what most GLO's are based off of so I know what I'm talking about.


ITB,

Milkshake

[Empress0105]

Hey Milkshake, Im a lil confused, one minute you are saying we are seperate then the next talking about the "bond"

I have had plenty of female KKPsi members look at me like I am an idiot when i enthusiastically appraoch them and say hey I'm your sister...which technically I am

And I have no problem with men in TBS... I just personally don't see why one would want to join TBS is KKPsi was there, and vice versa...


"...provides service to collegiate bands, encourages the advancement of women in the band profession and promotes and enriches an appreciation of band music..."


not saying it should be banned and forgotten for all eternity, but I personally as myself, don't understand it...

[Milkhakeax]

It really comes down to where a person feels most comfortable and what they want to do. To me, helping women, sometimes even specifically women in music is the best way to devote my time and energy. So yes, it is hard to convince men to join TBS, but many men feel more comfotable there. I did a small survey over the Nat'l Listserve and found dozens of men that felt the same way I do.

I talk of the bond, because we do have a bond. We do things together which is great and I think it's important. I think it is dangerous, however, when it gets to the point where TBS can't exist without KKPsi or the other way around. We should work together and be able to hang out together, but should our sole existance be dependent on the other organization? No, of course not. That's what I mean when I say we have a bond but we are seperate. We are different organizations that should and will work together when it is appropriate. Our measure of success should never be based of KKPsi, however. That's what I mean.

[DGMarie]

I am an alumna of TBS at a school (U of S. Carolina) which has a KKPsi chapter. At the time I was active, we had female only TBS and male only KKPsi. We were a sorority and they were a fraternity and this was just peachy. While we knew that TBS had some chapters which were co ed, we did think that was odd at the time (this was 20 years ago). I do think that the practice of calling the men "sisters" is unusual and seems to stand on fomality rather that practicality.

I would think that if a stronger chapter at a school with both decided to go co ed, it could/would be detrimental to the other chapter. Especially when both groups are focused on the same activity: supporting the band. I understand that this was the case after I graduated from school to my TBS chapter, which declined dramatically from over 50 girls to less than 10.


When a group like TBS functions as purely a female organization, the bond and temperment of the group is very different than when men join it. The actvities change, the conversations change, the meetings change. Especially when the TBS chapter is also a strong social organization for women in the band.

[Milkhakeax]

So should I turn in my letters and forget ritual? I am just as much a lifelong Sister as anyone else, regardless of my gender.

I think it's just a matter of people fear change. The hardcore Brothers/Sisters from all same sex chapters (not all, but at least some) seem to be the most adament in keeping gender lines, and why? How am I, or a female Brother, detrimental to the organization?

[DGMarie]

So should I turn in my letters and forget ritual? I am just as much a lifelong Sister as anyone else, regardless of my gender. I think it's just a matter of people fear change. The hardcore Brothers/Sisters from all same sex chapters (not all, but at least some) seem to be the most adament in keeping gender lines, and why? How am I, or a female Brother, detrimental to the organization?

My point was to simply provide an example of how such a change can cause problems with the other non-coed chapter if one chapter becomes co-ed, particulalry if the chapter which becomes co-ed is seen as more popular/powerful/better etc. than the single sex group.

Of course same sex chapters fear change! Why shouldn't they? Where are the statistics that say changing to co ed is beneficial to both organizations when both exist at the same school as same sex groups? Isn't it possible that the same sex status provides a certain clarity to why the two programs exist at one school simultaneously? That changing to co ed could potentially confuse the issue for incoming band members? It's possible, isn't it?

There is no reason to turn in your badge. However I question the ability to attract new male members into an organization which insists on calling the male initiates "sisters." You have no desire to be a "brother"? and what is wrong with "brother" anyway? Is it showing less respect? It certainly is a much more appropriate title.

[Milkhakeax]

Isn't it possible that the same sex status provides a certain clarity to why the two programs exist at one school simultaneously? That changing to co ed could potentially confuse the issue for incoming band members? It's possible, isn't it?

Which then can be turned around to, why do we have two organizations anyways? You know what, let's get rid of TBS while we're at it!

I don't know about anyone else, but the school I went to had two organizations that had two different personalities and two different styles of business, with a similar purpose: Tau Beta Sigma and Kappa Kappa Psi. We support bands, that's our a major part of our purpose, but in no way does that mean that we are the same or that we should follow the same paths. TBS is different than KKPsi, and the other way around and that's a good thing.

I have no desire to be a Brother because I am not one. I am a Sister in a sorority, and there many other male Sisters that share my sentiments. It's not that there is anything wrong with being a Brother, it's just not who we are. And from a legal stand point, no one within either organization can deny that.