What is Kappa Kappa Psi?

[Measi]

The co-ed chapters in KKY and TBS can (and are) a problem in many schools, yet others seem to handle it just fine.

My class was the last year that both the KKY and TBS chapters at my school were single-sex. The next year, KKY went co-ed. TBS did not. Three years later, TBS was gone. The chapter has been reborn, and is now co-ed, although is by far still majority female. I would prefer single-sex chapters, but at the same time... our chapters of KKY and TBS have such different personalities and different goals-- the co-ed chapters work well to offer different possibilities for each incoming band member.

The most important thing, I think, is that each member who joins the organization does so because they want to, not because it's the only choice available to them.

~ Mel.

[Measi]

Originally posted by AXiD670
Nowhere does it say "brother" or "men" or "boys" or "brotherhood." So really, by calling ourselves "brothers," it's not really something that is official. There is currently a thread on this board somewhere and I'm sure there are several more where the different sororities discuss whether they were founded as a "sorority" or a "fraternity." My sorority is known as Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity. That does not in any way make us "brothers" of our fraternity. Fraternity is just a word, and defined by the dictionary as "a body of people associated for a common purpose or interest, such as a guild." Where does that mention that it is chiefly male or that the members are known as "brothers" or "sisters?"

If you have such a problem with this, why did you join KKPsi to begin with? [/B]

For what it's worth, my Tau Beta Sigma shingle has "Tau Beta Sigma National Honorary <b>Fraternity</b>" on it. Both organizations are officially fraternities.

The terms sister and brother are used loosely in our chapter... the guys in TBS go with what they're comfortable with.

[WCUgirl]

Originally posted by Measi
For what it's worth, my Tau Beta Sigma shingle has "Tau Beta Sigma National Honorary <b>Fraternity</b>" on it. Both organizations are officially fraternities.

The terms sister and brother are used loosely in our chapter... the guys in TBS go with what they're comfortable with.

Thanks, Measi, for bringing up this point. I do not know much about TBS other than that it is KKPsi's "sister" organization. We had a TBS chapter at my school (it was also co-ed), but they closed a little over a year after I pledged.

I don't know what happened to the original poster who got us on this tangent (psi_chotic), but I somehow doubt any of this really matters to him.

[Contessima]

.

[looseneck4]

I personly don't like the idea of women in the frat but I would never (and never will...with or without estrogen) would turn a brother away....
The only music fraternities I know of are KKPsi ,PMA, and SAI
TBS is a sorority *it states this on your constitution*...sure it may may use a unisex word like band member but you are a sorority non the less and any man that joins your ranks a sorority sister regaurdless of what u may call him ..........personly I can only aprove of men joining in certian situations...honorary and restablishment of a dead chapter....but to each his own......

But this coed thing is/does causing a problem ......."if you have one then why the need for the other".......ask a few Universities that have run into this problem with the administration if men and women can join an org that is coed and serve the same purpose then y let u have both....

might as well disolve TBS and only have PSI...and tell Wava thanks for the memories!!!!

[Measi]

Originally posted by looseneck4
I personly don't like the idea of women in the frat but I would(and never will...with or without estrogen) turn a brother away....
The only music fraternities I know of are KKPsi ,PMA, and SAI
TBS is a sorority *it states this on your constitution*...sure it may may use a unisex word like band member but you are a sorority non the less and any man that joins your ranks a sorority sister regaurdless of what u may call him ..........personly I can only aprove of men joining in certian situations...honorary and restablishment of a dead chapter....but to each his own......

But this coed thing is/does causing a problem ......."if you have one then why the need for the other".......ask a few Universities that have run into this problem with the administration if men and women can join an org that is coed and serve the same purpose then y let u have both....

might as well disolve TBS and only have PSI...and tell Wava thanks for the memories!!!!

Of course--- dissolve TBS. Very typical of brothers who have some insecurity complex. Honestly, I don't know where KKPsi brothers have developed this b.s. I hear it all the time from brothers. I've rarely heard it from sisters-- and when I have heard it, it's been out of frustration in response to this posturing.

Do yourself a favor and get rid of the attitude-- because it HURTS your organization. BOTH organizations are equal in worth. If you think TBS should be dissolved, then KKPsi should be as well.

Do both organizations serve the same purpose? Yes. Do they go about it in the same way? Depends on your school. I can say for sure that Theta Beta (for KKPsi) and Eta Gamma (for TBS) are completely different organizations. Completely different dynamic, and they attract completely different types of people. Both chapters are co-ed. I can't speak for Theta Beta's feeling toward their female brothers, but I wouldn't trade our male sisters for anything.

Co-ed chapters CAN create problems if both organizations don't agree it's a good thing. But schools such as UConn have had both co-ed chapters for years, and it's never been a problem there.

[WCUgirl]

Originally posted by looseneck4
I personly don't like the idea of women in the frat but I would(and never will...with or without estrogen) turn a brother away....
The only music fraternities I know of are KKPsi ,PMA, and SAI
TBS is a sorority *it states this on your constitution*...sure it may may use a unisex word like band member but you are a sorority non the less and any man that joins your ranks a sorority sister regaurdless of what u may call him ..........personly I can only aprove of men joining in certian situations...honorary and restablishment of a dead chapter....but to each his own......

But this coed thing is/does causing a problem ......."if you have one then why the need for the other".......ask a few Universities that have run into this problem with the administration if men and women can join an org that is coed and serve the same purpose then y let u have both....

might as well disolve TBS and only have PSI...and tell Wava thanks for the memories!!!!

Does it really matter? KKPsi and TBS are both co-ed and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I doubt you and psi_chotic are even members of KKPsi and are simply trolls (if not the same one). My brothers would not come on here and make such ignorant statements. If you were a brother, you would have a better comprehension of the issue. So next time, read what you've written before hitting that button that says "Submit Reply" - you'll save yourself and my fraternity a lot of disgrace.

KTHNXBYE.

[looseneck4]

First off this is a discution board..everyone can post there views even if you don't like them ( the troll thing is a little out of place).....

Like I said before I don't care for women in the frat...I was raised different than you...my definitin of who belongs in what are based of of cultural upbringings(sp) when it comes to this issue.......(nothing sexist)

Like I said I would never disrespect or turn my back on a female member they are my fraternity brothers and will be treated as such (that is unless she just don't know anything about the org she's in and is just in it for the letters across her chest but all that can be fixed ).....and why would you hear a complaint from a women who has pledged Psi ...now I have heard complaints from TBS members about girls who go Psi...they just dont like it (nothing on a personal level but more on the level of what fraternal organization they should have affiliated themselves with)

The women in Psi and men in TBS thing does go both ways...

As I stated before if you read the problem with the co-ed thing is largly(sp) from an administration stand point at a few places and yes within the band itself when it comes to acceptance as a REAL FRATERNITY in the world outside of the band hall.... some schools wont let you charter both orgs due to the simularities of purpose and their now co-ed status....Like it has been said before "if you have one that provides service to the band then why do you need another organization that does the same thing?"....

and yes i am Psi in good standing and life ......you dont have to like it.....just live with it ......I still love you, got nothing personal aginst you and all that realy matters is the work we put into the frat...


and no i am not Psi_cotic
AEA

[WCUgirl]

Originally posted by looseneck4
First off this is a discution board..everyone can post there views even if you don't like them ( the troll thing is a little out of place).....

Like I said before I don't care for women in the frat...I was raised different than you...my definitin of who belongs in what are based of of cultural upbringings(sp) when it comes to this issue.......(nothing sexist)

Like I said I would never disrespect or turn my back on a female member they are my fraternity brothers and will be treated as such (that is unless she just don't know anything about the org she's in and is just in it for the letters across her chest but all that can be fixed ).....and why would you hear a complaint from a women who has pledged Psi ...now I have heard complaints from TBS members about girls who go Psi...they just dont like it (nothing on a personal level but more on the level of what fraternal organization they should have affiliated themselves with)

The women in Psi and men in TBS thing does go both ways...

As I stated before if you read the problem with the co-ed thing is largly(sp) from an administration stand point at a few places and yes within the band itself when it comes to acceptance as a REAL FRATERNITY in the world outside of the band hall.... some schools wont let you charter both orgs due to the simularities of purpose and their now co-ed status....Like it has been said before "if you have one that provides service to the band then why do you need another organization that does the same thing?"....

and yes i am Psi in good standing and life ......you dont have to like it.....just live with it ......I still love you, got nothing personal aginst you and all that realy matters is the work we put into the frat...


and no i am not Psi_cotic
AEA

Well, your motive/identity is suspect when your very first post on this board is of the nature that yours was.

Go back and re-read what Measi posted:

Originally posted by Measi
Do both organizations serve the same purpose? Yes. Do they go about it in the same way? Depends on your school. I can say for sure that Theta Beta (for KKPsi) and Eta Gamma (for TBS) are completely different organizations. Completely different dynamic, and they attract completely different types of people. Both chapters are co-ed.

Although these organizations have similar purposes, they are different organizations. They are going to attract different types of people. Obviously there is a need for both groups. Guess what - it happens every day in the social greek systems. All of the social GLOs have a similar purpose, but on most campuses there is more than one social GLO. Hmmm, how could that be? Perhaps b/c each group is unique in its own way. One group will be able to offer what another group is lacking.

If your membership numbers are dwindling, don't blame it on TBS for taking your members. Blame it on yourselves for not being able to recruit well.

And by the way, by saying that you don't care for women in KKPsi, you ARE disrespecting the women in KKPsi. I wonder how would you treat a woman who was president of your chapter?

Are you basing your feelings about women being in KKPsi on the fact that KKPsi is chartered as a fraternity? Is it semantics that's causing the problem in your head? Because if so, you need to (again) go back and re-read what I said about my sorority. We are known as Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity. But, we're women-only. But we're a fraternity. Strange. (please note the sarcasm.) I don't know what else could be indicating to you that KKPsi should be for men only.

Besides, Measi already told you:

Originally posted by Measi
For what it's worth, my Tau Beta Sigma shingle has "Tau Beta Sigma National Honorary Fraternity" on it. Both organizations are officially fraternities.

TBS is a fraternity.

Is your chapter co-ed?

[blkwebman1919]

This is an issue on which we all will have to agree to disagree. As a founding member of an HBCU single-sex chapter on a campus with a companion single-sex chapter of TBS, I can understand where looseneck4 and psichotic are coming from. Of course, I will welcome a female member of my org the same as I would any other, and I have on many occasions when I have had the opportunity to do so.

But, there are cultural differences that come into play here. Many of us who came through "gender-specific" chapters (both men AND women) support that way of thinking and don't equate it to discrimination or restriction of any person's rights.

I can also understand the way of thinking in the co-ed chapter culture and I certainly wouldn't be the one to dump on that, especially when they are fulfilling the sacred principles of our Fraternity. That's what works for them. However, remember that "single-sex" chapters work for us.

The problem here is when some co-ed chapter members (not all, and not necessarily those posting in this thread) try to imply that those of us who support the "single-sex" chapter way of thinking are somehow discriminatory, uninformed, or "neanderthals" who need to change.

IMHO, there is room for both views in our organization. Just as co-ed chapters are here to stay, so are "gender-specific" ones. We're all here for the same purposes. That's just the way it is.

Just my $19.19.

AEA

[WCUgirl]

blkwebman,

Out of curiosity, what would you do if a woman were to try to become a member at your single-sex chapter?

ETA: blkwebman's post is a lot more respectful and empathetic than is looseneck's. blkwebman was able to rationally state the reasons behind his logic, whereas looseneck came on here and blatantly stated that women in KKPsi is a problem and that TBS should be dissolved. That's just rude and really puts people on the defensive.

[blkwebman1919]

AxiD670,

If a female expressed her desire to join KKPsi and not TBS, then I would never seek to prevent her from submitting herself for consideration. To be honest though, I would have to ask her "Why KKPsi and not TBS?" and her answer would probably weigh heavily on the decision to accept her for MIP. Keep in mind, that "Why KKPsi?" would also be a critical question for any male prospective. Since this has never happened before, it's kind of hard to say exactly how things would unfold if it did.

However, I do not believe that this would ever happen (it never has in my undergrad chapter) because of the cultural traditions on campuses like my alma mater (both within the band community and the student population at large). The ladies identify heavily with TBS and the guys identify with KKPsi. And in general, the Greek community generally falls along gender-specific lines.

Now, if a female member of KKPsi who was made in another chapter were to transfer to our school, then I would welcome her just as I would any other member. I know of another single-sex chapter at a nearby school who has a female member that transferred from another school.

[Measi]

Originally posted by blkwebman1919
However, I do not believe that this would ever happen (it never has in my undergrad chapter) because of the cultural traditions on campuses like my alma mater (both within the band community and the student population at large). The ladies identify heavily with TBS and the guys identify with KKPsi. And in general, the Greek community generally falls along gender-specific lines.

Now, if a female member of KKPsi who was made in another chapter were to transfer to our school, then I would welcome her just as I would any other member. I know of another single-sex chapter at a nearby school who has a female member that transferred from another school.

When I originally joined TBS, our chapters were also heavily identified in gender roles. There had been some attempts by guys to pledge TBS (and I'm sure, but never had heard of girls attempting to go KKPsi). Honestly, I prefered it that way. The rumblings by brothers that TBS was inferior and therefore should be eliminated was already present, however.

For what it's worth, blkwebman1919--- you appear to have a very healthy (and respectful) attitude about it. It's refreshing.

~ Mel.

[looseneck4]

To answer your last Q.. my chapter is all male...and 8 times out of 10 will stay that way... things can change(for what ever reason good or bad) and with the way the program is going it just may one day induct a female member......but only by say 1 or 2 members if it ever does ( u have to know the band)........

I mean no disrespect or ill will to any female member past, pressent, or future... its just culturaly I see things different than u and a few of other people....no realy big problem

As for my women in KKPsi being a problem statement I gave my reasons behind it..nothing personal just what is noticed from my side of the tracks.....

As for our TBS chapter it been inactive for the last 10 years due to there being almost no women in the band (all male marching unit ...which is were our KKPsi and TBS operated out of...) weve only recently aquired SAI and M Phi E was not attracting that much attention to itself.....

As for there being a fraternity for women OH WOW!!!!......tell me something i don't know...sorority is a rather a new word to the world.....

When Psi was founded it was made by bandsmen for bandsmen(male fraternity)...but since then things have changed (some from group believes others for legal reasons and then there is the just cause factor.....but changed non the less) all we can do its keep working towards our one collective goal regardless of who has on the letters.....

[Infidelicious]

Originally posted by psi_chotic02
[B]my opinion is that if the founding fathers wanted to send a clear message about women being in the frat......they would've had at least one women founder (I mean, i know there had to be at least ONE female member in the band).....THEY wouldn't call themselves fathers.........WE wouldn't be called brothers.......and THIS wouldn't be a brotherhood!!!

I know I'm a bit late in jumping into this conversation, but being a brother of KKPsi Alpha, I seem to remember a bit about our band's history and how there were no female members of the OAMC (now OSU) bands at the time the fraternity was founded... so, there is really no way to know how they would have organized had there been women in the band.