Letters

[33girl]

Originally posted by kappaloo
Maria was a novice, not a postulant. Actually, to be accurate, she SHOULD have gotten in major trouble for her relation with Captain Von Trapp - but she left the order instead.

well dagnabbit, the TV Guide always referred to her as a postulant. if you can't trust TV Guide, who can you trust? LOL

[AXPGoBot]

Originally posted by kappaloo
WOW. Can you take the back? Just because I feel that NM shouldn't wear letter doesn't mean "I don't belive in pledging" or whatever. That's really offensive.

You're misunderstanding me. My comments were not directed towards anyone in particular, just those who legitimately feel that "pledging" of any sort is "wrong." THAT mentality is what pisses me off, wearing letters during pledging or not is by comparison a small matter.

All appologies kappaloo for the confusion.

As for Geekypenguin, the you also took what I said out of context, and it's not at all very professional to go spouting off about things we discussed in a private message.

To your response I have this response:

How can you take your letters seriously if you vicariously give them out to whoever is given a bid? You don't really know your bids, you might like them, theymight be great people, but that's like meeting someone at orientation and 2 hours later wanting to be their roomate. It's very childish and naive. But hey, I've learned quite a bit reading this thread, and I'm seeing other people's traditions in a different light. That being said I respect your decision to give out letters to whomever and whenever you feel like (after all, they're not mine, so why should I care?). I respect that choice, but am still entitled to my opinion, however ignorant or "wrong" it may seem to you. But I thank you and others for allowing me to see the reasoning behind some of this,w hich I did not understand before.

Secondly, my comments in my last post WERE NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS YOU AND YOUR CHAPTER. I guess I didn't make that clear but the truth is I was fuming. So now, I'll say it again, if you really feel like Greeks shouldn't have to earn the rite to be a Sister/Brother by pledging or whatever, THAT is the mockery and THAT is something that our founders would role in their graves about. I can speak for my org only: we have a high standard and a deep responsibilty, our secrets, ideals and responsibilites are not for everyone, I'd hate to see a time when just anyone can walk in and sign up for Alpha Chi Rho, and that's what some people out there (NOT NECESARILY YOU GEEKYPENGUIN, got it that time?) are pushing for. It's bad.

There. Flame away, but I won't change my mind.

[Kristin AGD]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
WE ARE NOT MAKING LIGHTLY OF OUR LETTERS. For you to call Gamma Phi Beta a mockery of the Greek system makes you look like a donky. We're not having membership problems, we're expanding. The policy of wearing letters being permissible as a new member is not just from my "small struggling chapter" that you claim is "desperate for members" which is obviously why we've existed for longer than our Alpha chapter. It's an international policy in our bylaws. If you want to disrespect us for that, fine. I don't think any of our Panhellenic sister will be very impressed.

The same applies for Alpha Gamma Delta as an organization. According to headquarters New Members are allowed to display our letters on clothing & jewelry. (at least according to my new member manual from the early 90's).

Edited to add: I respect the fact that other organizations do things differently. But I do, for the most part, believe that our chapters should be consistent in adhering to IHQ policies.

[Katey Alpha Gam]

Originally posted by Kristin AGD
The same applies for Alpha Gamma Delta as an organization. According to headquarters New Members are allowed to display our letters on clothing & jewelry. (at least according to my new member manual from the early 90's).

Edited to add: I respect the fact that other organizations do things differently. But I do, for the most part, believe that our chapters should be consistent in adhering to IHQ policies.

I agree and disagree with that. Just as some chapters add offices, a chapter should be allowed to do what they see is fit when it comes to the reverence of our symbols so long as it doesn't violate any major IHQ rules. I think not allowing members to wear stitched letters falls into that category. And personally speaking about AGD; not that I dont admire us for being one of the first orgs to crack down on hazing because I think that was great, but I think that we have a big prob in some cases w/being way too overly PC about our new members or our hazing policies and I think when you make things overly PC, you trivialize the seriousness of the big problems by dealing too much wth the little ones. More and more members of ALL orgs every year have less and less knowledge of their history, rituals, and what sets them apart from others. I think this is directly correlated w/the ease of being basically rubber stamped in. I must say I admire NPHC's for their dilligence in making sure their members know their org inside and out; when some other members don't even know founding place and date. I think basically the point a lot of ppl are trying to make is that allowing members to wear letters is in a way a symbol of the lack of reverence that is occuring at epidemic rates overall in the greek community.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by AXPGoBot
How can you take your letters seriously if you vicariously give them out to whoever is given a bid? You don't really know your bids, you might like them, theymight be great people, but that's like meeting someone at orientation and 2 hours later wanting to be their roomate. It's very childish and naive.

I'm not sure where I said we did that. NMs are allowed to, and encouraged to, order letters with the rest of the chapter when we do a bulk order. They usually arrive before initiation, and the new girls are told that they are permitted to wear them and that we will not be angry with them if they do, but that most of us chose to wait. The night before initiation, each pledge mom (big sister) gives her daughter a set of stitch letters, usually on a sweatshirt (since it's always cold when we're initiating) and her lettered coat. Since the ladies have now fulfilled every aspect of their new member period (which yes, includes teaching of 100+ years of history, local and international, as well as activities, ideals, etc, blah blah blah) they are welcomed to wear letters - all they have left to do is be initiated on Friday night.

I wouldn't consider that vicariously tossing our letters out to everyone. As a chapter we decided no one can wear letters but us - our name must be spelled out on all social shirts, boyfriends and fiancees and husbands cannot wear letters, our sweethearts have shirts that say "Gammie Guys," etc. We don't take our letters lightly, but we also don't violate our international policies, because we like our charter. It looks good on our wall.

[wptw]

Just to clarify: I’m not saying anyone is skating. And I’m not saying anyone is trivializing the letters or deliberately trying to water down their organization.

What concerns me is that this policy of allowing pledges to wear letters is a fairly recent development. And it looks to me as if the policy shift was in response not to the will of the undergrad members, but to external pressure to break down some of those member/nonmember barriers that are so un-PC and distasteful these days. It has happened so gradually that many of you haven’t noticed, or if you have noticed then you only consider the changes “superficial”, “not a big deal”, “not what’s important”.

I’m saying that perhaps you’re on a slippery slope and you don’t realize it.

The collective memory of an undergraduate chapter is quite short by nature (about 4 years, obviously), so it’s not surprising that many of you current undergrads and recent graduates don’t consider it a big deal because after all, that’s how it was when you were in school.

For me, it’s really a shocking departure because when I was an undergrad (and not all that long ago!), this was completely unheard of.

Shadokat thinks drawing the line between member and nonmember using the wearing of letters is silly. Perhaps she’s right. But I think we all agree it should be drawn somewhere. And if, as I have observed, that line has made a big shift in the last 10 years because of external pressure on our policymakers, shouldn’t we be a little more concerned about that?

I really like what Katey just posted about losing the things that set us apart and I agree completely (except for the part about local chapters being able to decide how best to use the GLO’s esoteric symbols).

Yes, you should follow your IHQ policies. And I actually feel strongly that decisions like these should absolutely NOT be left at the chapter level. But don’t forget that undergrads and alumni should make IHQ policy, not university administrators and newspaper editors.

wptw

[Kristin AGD]

Just to go on record. I am not against pledging. I believe in the importance of learning about and believing in your organization before you are initiated. I don't have a problem calling "new members" pledges. Just as I didn't have a problem being called a pledge (circa 1995). I was initiated into a young chapter. And that is probably why I have a different viewpoint than some members of older established chapters. We took our cues from IHQ. New members are allowed to wear letters on clothing & jewelry. This is they way I have always known it.

I totally agree that the entire greek system has become way too politically correct. And that risk management has put a damper on a lot of things traditionally fun and unique about being greek. I had better not get started...

[shadokat]

wptw, you're right, there is a line. That line that is drawn is that as an initiated member of Delta Phi Epsilon, I have been taught the ritual, ideals,values, principles, and whatever other words you want to throw in there to denote the important stuff. New members are learning the history and traditions, etc. and following the new member program so that they understand what the sorority is all about and what is expected of them as members of the sorority. When the new member program is complete, they are initiated and the line between us disappears, because we all understand and agree to live the life of Delta Phi Epsilon sisters....that, to me, is how new members and initiates are separated.

I respect that others have different viewpoints and ideas as to what makes a new member different from a sister. AXPGoBot, don't claim to know the way my sorority or anyone else's GLO runs because of a simple choice of allowing NMs to wear letters. Maybe your anger on this subject lies in your own fraternity, but it's unfair to tell those of us who follow this policy that we're a mockery.

[Betarulz!]

Originally posted by AXPGoBot

So now, I'll say it again, if you really feel like Greeks shouldn't have to earn the rite to be a Sister/Brother by pledging or whatever, THAT is the mockery and THAT is something that our founders would role in their graves about. I can speak for my org only: we have a high standard and a deep responsibilty, our secrets, ideals and responsibilites are not for everyone, I'd hate to see a time when just anyone can walk in and sign up for Alpha Chi Rho, and that's what some people out there (NOT NECESARILY YOU GEEKYPENGUIN, got it that time?) are pushing for. It's bad.

I agree there should be some type of process to earn the right to know the secrets of each GLO.

However I don't think that the founders for most organizations would be rolling in their graves, simply because adding members to your association has changed drastically since the founding of many organizations.
I'd like to point out that the concept of "pledging" and rushing are more modern developments in the evolution of Greek life towards the way we know it today. Historically, reaching into the earlier part (WWI era, at the very latest I think) of the 20th Century, members would extend invitations to new members. If the potential new member accepted the invitation they would be initiated practically on the spot. For the Great Old Fraternities, that means that pledging hasn't even been the standard for a majority of their existence. (Most of this info came from the 2002 edition of Son of the Stars Beta Theta Pi's Pledge Manual, but I can't find my copy right now so it's from memory, I apologize if the dates are slightly off).


I would like to clairify: I don't think letters are superficial, just the act of not allowing pledges to wear them. I dont' know if I've been mistunderstood, but this should clear up any misconceptions.

Finally, AXP, I think that any one can be interested in joining any GLO...that's the point of rush right? I don't think anyone is saying that there will be a time when anyone will be able to become a member just because they want to. Rush will forever remain a mutual desire operation, each side choosing to associate itself with the other party...there simply can be no other way.

Finally I would like to hear the opinions from those of you who feel very strongly about not allowing pledges to wear letters on GLO's like Delta Upsilon. Since they are non-secretive and you could go watch their ritual if they would let you, what is your take on their pledges and such. Do letters become more important, or less because of the non secretive nature?

[decadence]

Finally I would like to hear the opinions from those of you who feel very strongly about not allowing pledges to wear letters on GLO's like Delta Upsilon. Since they are non-secretive and you could go watch their ritual if they would let you, what is your take on their pledges and such. Do letters become more important, or less because of the non secretive nature?

Escellent question Betarulz! and thajn you for asking it. I wondered this myself & I'm really interested to see what people will post.