Affirmative Action

[DeltAlum]

Well, as I understand the decision, it was kind of a split decision. And, I think the Court got it pretty much right.

My opinion since I first became aware of the situation (and argued on a previous thread) is that the twenty points given in the undergraduate situation was excessive, and in fact, unfair. If the number of points had been more reasonable, I probably wouldn't have objected.

On the other hand, the way the Law School handled their situation seems much more even handed.

I've seen that Affirmative Action was (and in many cases still is) necessary, and I've seen it cause some injustices in itself.

In the long run, however, no system is perfect. The best of all possible worlds is to get the point where Affirmative Action is moot because it is no longer needed.

[KillarneyRose]

I just thought of a question and wondered if anyone knew the answer.

In order for someone to be able to say on their college application that they are a member of a certain minority group, is there a "cutoff" regarding how much of that minority they must be?

For example, if someone had one African American grandparent would they be considered an African American for Affirmative Action purposes?

[PM_Mama00]

I knew someone who who like a certain percentage of Native American and they told me that they get a big scholarship or a free ride. I don't remember or know if it's true but I'm assuming it wouldn't matter what percentage it is.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
I knew someone who who like a certain percentage of Native American and they told me that they get a big scholarship or a free ride. I don't remember or know if it's true but I'm assuming it wouldn't matter what percentage it is.

Native Americans are a whole different story. The way I hear it, you have to be registered with your tribe of ancestory in order to receive the benefits.

If AA was truly used in the way that LeslieAGD describes it, then I'm all for it. Sadly, I don't think that's always the case.

[RUgreek]

eh, i broswed through Gratz v. Bollinger, not exactly to me the landmark decision every keeps getting wet about.

Most of the opinion is saying the school was wrong in part for what they did and how they set their standards, so there's another issue unsettled with AA. Second, they found that Jennifer and Patrick had standing, which is a big deal to me since this will open the gates for more claims on unfair racial preferences unless the school's can prove the narrowly tailored exception. And I guess looking at it from a constitutional point of view, AA is a violation of equal protections clause and title VI since it does set one class of persons above another.

On the other hand, I think sometimes AA is a necessary evil, so that we can force a balance that just isn't going to happen on its own. But reading through this garbage, I don't see this case as being the final word. Only 6 justices took part in the opinion (Scalia must be alseep again) so I'll keep my eye out for a better ruling in the future.


RUgreek

[aggieAXO]

The way I have seen AA used makes me an opponent of this decision. Maybe things have changed in the last 13 years since I was a senior in HS? I went to a HS that was about 70-80% hispanic. Many of my well to do hispanic friends were being courted by several colleges and offered scholarships left and right. I know for a fact that I had much better grades and a higher SAT score and more involvement in activities than one of my best friends yet she had her choice of colleges/scholarships etc... I had a friend (white male) that was #1 in our class had a very high SAT score, involved in many extracurricular activities and yet he was not accepted to a certain Ivy league college. Another girl (hispanic) who also had good grades but not as good as my friend, lower SAT score, about the same involvement in activities was accepted to this college. Many people knew it was probably due to AA and it caused some rift in our senior class. AA became a big topic of conversation among my senior class and it was not seen in a positive light.

I know admittance to veterinary school uses race as a big factor also -at least back in the early 90's (I worked for a professor that was on the admittance committee). I think a person should be judged on a combination of grades, extracurricular activities, interview, GRE not race or gender.

[sugar and spice]

Some affirmative action statistics:

A study shown concluded that if there was no affirmative action at the University of Michigan, the plaintiff's chance of being admitted to the UM would only increased by a very small fraction of a percent. They also compared data from the University of California-Berkeley before and after the California law prohibiting affirmative action. The conclusion? If you were black, your chance of getting into Berkeley plummeted, while once again, if you were white, your chance of getting in only increased by some tiny fraction of a percent. Furthermore, they studied those students who went to college because of affirmative action policies and found that they went onto grad school and professional schools at a significantly higher rate than the kids who would have replaced them had there been no affirmative action. Those who got in via AA also did far more community service and contributed to their communities far more often than those who would have replaced them without AA.

That's why I'm saying that high school grades and test scores shouldn't matter THAT much. If I had two potential students, a white kid with a 3.9 and a black kid with a 3.5, but I know that the white kid will just graduate from college and spend the rest of his life doing nothing but managing a Walmart, whereas the black kid will go to law school and do lifelong volunteer work teaching underprivileged kids to read -- of course I'm going to pick the black kid.

Grades and test scores don't tell the whole story.

[PM_Mama00]

Just throwing this lil tidbit in... Jennifer Gratz graduated from teh same lil high school of the lil town I live in now. She graduated college (duno from where) and is married and lives in Cali now. Funny how she graduated from high school in 95 and just now all this is blowing up! Good for Jennifer tho!

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by sugar and spice


Grades and test scores don't tell the whole story.

No they don't -- especially standardized tests such as the SAT which have been proven to be the MOST discriminatory towards WOMEN (not just minority women, but all women) -- my biggest problem with this is that I sat for 4 years doing all my good psych undergrad student work. I even worked for the last year with my team (we had a small group of seniors assigned to work on special projects each year) taking and re-taking different standardized tests. We proved conclusively that it did discriminate on a variety of levels, but most of all towards women. Our findings supported several of the "real" studies (ie, grant studies that you find in the big journals that people can't even get through the title of without falling asleep!) -- so after we do all that work, and end up with a great final grade, we are told "now, in order to go to grad school here, you need to take the GRE" -- I'm like....huh? Didn't we just discuss this?!

Anyway, I suck on standardized tests - I am the "stereotypical" female that can't do math

Sorry for the little side-note (as I feel it does pertain to AA), but I wanted to add this info in.

Regarding AA, I have an understanding of both sides -- to comment now (when I am supposed to be packing the car) wouldn't allow me enough time to clarify my underlying feelings for each, however, I can agree with most of what has been said from both "sides" of the issue....its just a matter of finding a way to make it work so that all people are judged on their merits and what they can contribute to the learning environment.

[MattUMASSD]

great posts sugar and spice.

[LeslieAGD]

Wow! I just wanted to say I'm proud of everyone for expressing their opinions maturely!
I'm glad I didn't wake up to a topic flame war!

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
I just thought of a question and wondered if anyone knew the answer.

In order for someone to be able to say on their college application that they are a member of a certain minority group, is there a "cutoff" regarding how much of that minority they must be?

For example, if someone had one African American grandparent would they be considered an African American for Affirmative Action purposes?

In terms of being "Native American" I have two little pieces of experience.

First is that whether you are "accepted" as a member of any given tribe is very much up to the tribe as to "how much (fill in the blank) blood you have.

Second, some companies have policies. When my mother died and I found out that all of her talk about Cherokee ancestry was true (my cousin -- same generation as me -- did the family geneology and proved it conclusively), I went to the HR person at the TV station I workd for. The litmus there is "Tribal affiliation or community recognition."

My kids and I all qualify, but we haven't asked for any of the scholarship money available. I guess we just figured to leave it for those who might need it more than us.

Finally, both of our kids who decided to go to college were accepted everywhere they applied and got reasonable scholarships. In the case of our son, that included numerous "highly selective" schools. (National Merit Scholar son ended up with a full academic ride)

AA aside, our experience is that if you are an excellent student, with a well rounded HS career in terms of extracurriculars, student government, and have good test scores, etc., the chances are pretty good you'll be accepted.

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Some affirmative action statistics:

A study shown concluded that if there was no affirmative action at the University of Michigan, the plaintiff's chance of being admitted to the UM would only increased by a very small fraction of a percent. They also compared data from the University of California-Berkeley before and after the California law prohibiting affirmative action. The conclusion? If you were black, your chance of getting into Berkeley plummeted, while once again, if you were white, your chance of getting in only increased by some tiny fraction of a percent. Furthermore, they studied those students who went to college because of affirmative action policies and found that they went onto grad school and professional schools at a significantly higher rate than the kids who would have replaced them had there been no affirmative action. Those who got in via AA also did far more community service and contributed to their communities far more often than those who would have replaced them without AA.

That's why I'm saying that high school grades and test scores shouldn't matter THAT much. If I had two potential students, a white kid with a 3.9 and a black kid with a 3.5, but I know that the white kid will just graduate from college and spend the rest of his life doing nothing but managing a Walmart, whereas the black kid will go to law school and do lifelong volunteer work teaching underprivileged kids to read -- of course I'm going to pick the black kid.

Grades and test scores don't tell the whole story.

I'm not sure if I agree with all that, but everyone is entitled to believe what they want. To say a white kid is lazy and a black kid is the savior of all is a bit over-stretching the truth. That's the point AA is suppose to make, not to say a black smart kid is a better person, but they are equally qualified to do the same thing, but because of racial or gender discrimination, one is blindly chosen over the other.

As for study after study after.... they always sound great on paper, but none of them truly make social sense. Each person thinks and decides on their own, not based on the statistical majority. I'm not sure how these studies are made, but to claim white kids that would have taken black kids places in college are not pursuing post-graduate education solely because of the color of their skin is ridiculous to me. Financial facotrs i'm sure played a role in it, and I think value of extra education is based on the greater probability of standing out. For instance, white lawyers are everywhere, but black lawyers are still a low %, so they will in a sense be considered a "hotter commodity."

If admission chances increased only slightly, it still does not change the fact that acceptance or denial is a plain decision; you're either in or out. If we had admissions based on percentages, then there might be a good argument that AA has little or no effect on reverse discrimination. However, the fact remains, one person gets in and the other doesn't.

AA is still in my opinion necessary for the time being. You just can't trust anyone these days to do the right thing. But arguments for its value to society kind of bother me. Don't tell me white kids are spoiled and undeserving, just say minorities are trying to level the playing field and reach a higher standard that they would not normally be able to get had AA not existed.


RUgreek

[madmax]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
.

That's why I'm saying that high school grades and test scores shouldn't matter THAT much. If I had two potential students, a white kid with a 3.9 and a black kid with a 3.5, but I know that the white kid will just graduate from college and spend the rest of his life doing nothing but managing a Walmart, whereas the black kid will go to law school and do lifelong volunteer work teaching underprivileged kids to read -- of course I'm going to pick the black kid.

How do you know what someone will be doing 10 years from now?

[OUlioness01]

i really like all these arguments. when i look at people arguing abuot the public school thing though it makes me think. this case was decided about graduate school, not undergrad. to get to graduate school you need at least 4 years of college (on average). shouldn't most of the inequalities have evened out at this point? aside from the GRE i think that it really should have. the point system makes a lot of sense looking at these arguments when your'e jsut considering undergrad, but i'm still not convinced when it comes down to grad school.