Church Put out of Group for Baptizing Gay Men

[Blackwatch]

I think we need to define the terms of this discussion to get a better understanding of everyones' views on this issue.

First, What is Sin? I have seen on this board several broad definitions, but I think Doggeystyle's definition is intriguing. He states that "SINS are WEAKNESSES of HUMAN CHARACTER that we are born into". This seems to indicate that sin is an inevitable part of the human experience. I think we need to delineate here between the different types of sin. The sin that we are born into is the original sin said to be committed by Adam and Eve in the garden (Gen. 3). People individually do not commit this sin, this sin places us out of fellowship with God from birth (according to Christian Orthodoxy). These sins that we see today; greed, theft, murder, homosexuality, fornication, etc. are CHOICES that we make today. If we encounter the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we then should respond with a desire to choose to be righteous from that point on. This is where repentence begins, with the desire to do the right thing out of love for God. Now, do we actually do the right thing all of the time, no. This is the struggle that Paul has in Romans 7. This is also why we have GRACE.

Next, What does baptism do? Does baptism save us? No, baptism is a ritual commemorating the saved person's acceptance of the gospel of Truth. Can a church withold God's blessing of salvation by refusing to baptize someone? I think not. So, if these gay men are openly gay, refusing to confess (from the greek HOMOLOGOUS: to agree with God) and repent on the issue of homosexuality and refuse to submit their own will to God's will on this issue, then are they really saved, regardless if they are actually baptised or not? Now, does the Bible teach that homosexuality is a sin? I think so, but that doesn't mean that the Bible actually does teach this, it is merely my interpretation (though I haven't heard a convincing argument otherwise). So I can see how a true believer can honestly believe that the Bible is ambiguous on this issue. I just call on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the believer into the truth about this issue.

Finally, what are we to make of the distinctons between sin and words like wickedness, abomination, and willful unrighteousness? Literally, the word sin in the new testament is Harmatia-missing the mark. This connotates that you are aiming to do the right thing, but , due to immaturity, lack of discipline, misinformation, etc., you fail to actually do the right thing. If we agree that sins, all sins, are choices, then whether the sin that we choose is simply a sin to God or an abomination to God really is a battle in semantics. There were an abundance of things in the old testament that were considered abominations (Check Leviticus 19 for example) that we would consider harmless today. We regulate these things to cultural mandates of the time that generally are not applicable in our time and culture. We should seek the truth in Christ for our time, not to recreate ancient Jewish culture in our time. When the word abomination is used to describe these things, there's no implication that God is commenting upon the motives behind doing them as being more heinous than commiting the sin of say, coveteousness. I think what is happening here on GC is that some people have it made up in their own minds that somehow homosexuality is worse than other types of fornication, and are seeking to justify this stance with a view of scripture that reconcilies their own preconcieved notions. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus died for sins, but not abominations? Abominations are not defined as sins that people choose to do, then declare them to be righteous. I admit that this is a problem, but I dare not say that this is what the Bible means when it talks of abominations (maybe reprobate minds from Romans 1?, but not abominations). The issue with the reprobate was that they rejected the true knowledge of God and wrote their own law. I don't think that we can say that a person that understands the Bible differently on the issue of homosexuality is rejecting the total counsel of the Bible and therefore God. If these men from the article were doing that, they wouldn't want to even go to church or be baptized. I would think that they wouldn't even concern themselves with the whole thing and just go and be gay atheists or something.

Considering my first post in this thread, I can see how one can conclude that the Bible maybe ambiguous when it comes to the issue of homosexuality as we see it today. I don't think that this issue is easily resolved by quoting a few scriptures, considering the issues with translation, interpretation, and applicability of these scriptures. Honestly, I think the issue must come down to conscience, how does the Holy Spirit lead the sincere heart of a true believer on this issue. No, I do not think that this is "religion lite" so to speak, but "religion right" if you will, seeing that Christ's whole message was concerned with love and finding true righteousness OUTSIDE OF THE LAW, which means that the Holy Spirit will lead and guide every true believer into all truth. Will this truth contradict scripture, no, but it will fulfill the scripture, which means it will give us right understanding, which may contradict our previous understanding of scripture.

Blackwatch!!!!!!