DYING BREED

[mccoyred]

While I agree that discretion must be used, none of the activities that I have seen posted are harmful even though they are 'banned' by the MIT process.

It is also up to the members and the interests/pledges (for lack of a better name) to use common sense and good judgment when conducting intake activities.

Originally posted by Eclipse:
Can a Me phi Me get in on this convo?


I personally don't think stopping all new member intake will stop hazing. One needs only look at this and other internet greek related sites to find out why I say this. Folks (greek and non greek) separate themselves into "pledged" vs. "straight intake". Typically the pledged folks get the most "respect". New members are quick to qualify anything they say with a "yeah I pledged". The "old" above ground process is romanticized and glorified by neos and old heads alike, and perpetuated by, I think, the old heads who like to swap war stories. (See http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/...ML/000261.html for examples. When potential members see this kind of talk they say "Ohhhh I want that too." which leads to folks who welcome, if not beg to be hazed/pledged (see Aspire's question on this forum http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/...ML/000259.html ) If the real intent is to stop hazing, then I think the more appropriate course of action would be to prevent current members from talking about their process in open forums or mixed company. You can't miss/want what you don't know about. Wait a minute...isn't that something called discretion?? Where have I heard that word before?!?!

On the original topic, placing a moratorium on intake would allow all of us to get our internal houses in order. After all, the responsibility lies with the members to 'make' the new members correctly, ie in accordance with the orgs CURRENT national policIES.


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MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[The Original Ape]

This may sound corny to some of yall, even crazy to others; but those of you that pledge d and remained active, actually envisioned what your founders really wanted for the organization, you should get my meaning.

Each of our organizations had founders, and each group had a central purpose for coming together and doing the things they did. Every thing they did had a meaning specific to them and the people they represent-from the letters and colors to their mission statement(statement of purpose). The people that joined these organizations had to more than agree with the stated purposes of these organizations, they had to BELIEVE in them; and they subsequently COMMITTED everything they could to the achievement of their goals.
The time of their inception was a desparate one for us as a people because of a lack of "demonstrated leadership". Our organizations help unite us as a people, and gave us enough pride to sustain ourselves and uplift our standard of living. Imagine how hard it was in the beginning(during The Great Depression) to get people to come to meetings, and to donate money-even to pay their dues! Imagine the sacrifices these people made so that life for us could be better-and we cry over "pledging". Hell, THAT'S PLEDGING!!!
What kind of committment do you think we have for our organization today? Is it anywhere near that of the founders and first initiates of our organizations? Why not? Because we don't see "demonstrated leadership" on a consistent basis. The challenges of black people have INCREASED, instead of decreased. Life in America has become easy, and technology has made us lazy and intolerant to hard work; and it is THIS new mindframe that has us in our current dilemna. All of us are too busy or lazy to sit down and create new ways to achieve the goals set by our founders. If real, measurable community service was the prerequisite/intake procedure for membership, do you think our organizations would grow?

The problem is, we lost the purposes for which we were founded, and the traditions that sustained us.

[This message has been edited by The Original Ape (edited June 09, 2001).]

[AKA2D '91]

Thanks for the book! (only kidding)

IMHO, the answer to your question is NO.

[SableCherub]

Originally posted by dirtymike1906:
Very good points 12dn and justmyo!

12dn, your points about parenting and teaching made me visualize the military as another arena in which pledging/hazing is sanctioned.

And Justmyo, I agree with your views on spite. I do remember a time, however, when "pledging" was totally exclusive from "hazing."

I think that what now separates BGLOs from other areas of society where "pledging" is endorsed is "purpose." In many ways, we have lost our direction. Many are compelled to join only to step, chant, wear a t-shirt, and turn out next year's Greek Show, only to never be seen again shortly after graduation. Some of us are the ultimate groupies--we only aspire to rub elbows with fame, rather than partake in the creation and maintenance. Whereas people are able to agree with forms of "hazing" in education, military, etc. for a noble "purpose," they see little place for similar activities on a greek level.

hazing is not SANCTIONED in the military...and think about this for a minute...a member of a sorority or fraternity is not obligated to pick up a gun and kill someone if necessary to defend his/herself in a time of war...i don't know about you...but i see a big dang difference between activities that are seen as "hazing" in the military and what some fraternity and sorority members do for no other reason or purpose of preparation but to say that they are hard...i never heard one of my sister or brother flights during training BOAST about how hard they were as a result of their training...hmmmmn...anyhow...here's a suggestion...though far fetched...when i was in training we had to carry these tiny forms called form 341's that were blank forms that had a space to put all our info...name, rank, all that...the reason we carried them was so that if we were seen doing something "wrong" someone authorized to "ask" us for one could do so...they would then fill it out with all our info and send it to "headquarters"...say ya'll carried something like that and everytime you were even suspected of hazing you had to give one up...and it was sent to headquarters...after having so many pulled you or your chapter would be suspended and if too many people in your chapter had a certain amount pulled...that chapter would get indefinitely shut down...my point...if you REALLY want to get rid of hazing...you can do it...and nearly eradicate it within 5 to 10 years tops... also...defending greeks just because they are greek and automatically assuming that those that report hazing are out for "easy rides", are lying, or are causing trouble only exacerbates the problem...again...if you want to get rid of it you can get rid of it...it is still here because not everyone wants it gone...that is the truth...and once you clearly admit that and address that...you can get your organizations on track...but as long as you deny that fact it will stick around...stop sugar coating situations...if there is no bruise there was no abuse according to some...that is a sad mind set to have...gdi out...



[This message has been edited by SableCherub (edited June 09, 2001).]

[DoggyStyle82]

SABLECHERUB: everyone has an opinion. Outsiders always have comments but have no idea of what they are commenting on because they really don't know. Any fraternal similarities with "hazing" and the military is strictly for building an "esprit d'corps", a sense of unity and purpose. Many of the principles of Kwanzaa, so to speak. Unless a people or organization are unified and of one accord, how do they carry out their purpose? I pledged old school and am damn proud of it. I pledged under the process designed and chaired by my Founders. I don't care what anyone says, I will take their way of molding a pledgee into a full-fledged member over the NPHC, lawyers, or GDIs any day.

[Aspire]

I'm not greek, however I think that everyone can agree that BGLO's are families not just organizations and I don't know one family that doesn't have problems, however the only time the family falls apart is when the family acts like they aren't family. And that's what I see personally with alot of people who are in BGLO's right now and I personally believe that it is because they have no idea what their founders went through. Now if you want to know how I can say that it's because I know the history of a few organization one in particular and right now I am struggling and striving to learn everything I can learn to show my self worthy of the organization I want to join, but it pisses me off to say Happy incorporation day to a member and that member doesn't even realize that the day is incorporation day until I say it, because he rollerbladed his behind in. If you don't know where you came from and don't have any since of struggle then you don't truely appreciate yourself so how can a person say they are greek and they didn't struggle or study to show themselves approved. I am glad that the chapter I want to cross still pledges and when I cross I'll make sure it stays that way, why because I despise the fact that anyone with a 2.5 gpa and a descent resume can walk into a prestigious organization wear para and have no Idea what it means to be a real member because they didn't pledge.Because if truth be told pledging doesn't make you a BGLO it refines and purifies the one that you already are in your heart and if you can't make it through a process that just proves you didn't have the heart and that's why BGLO's are in trouble because it is getting members who think they fit the stereotype(MIP) instead of having the organization in their heart(Pledgees) and in your heart includes : History,poems,chants,challenges,will to serve,to bare the burdens of your fellow man/woman, the HEART to struggle for what you know should be.And many members who don't have to search for the light or cross the sands don't appreciate the promise land therefore they continu to make more rules that destroy the legacy and tradition that was setup by the founders

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Looking For the Light

[This message has been edited by Aspire (edited June 09, 2001).]

[Aspire]

To all who aspire to pledge one day....

To laugh it to risk appearing the fool.
To weep is to risk appearing sentimental
to place your ideas and your dreams before the crowd is to risk loss.
To love is to risk not being loved in return.
To live is to risk dying.
To hope is to risk despair.
To try at all is to risk failure.
But to risk we must
Because the greatest hazard in life is to risk nothing at all.

[This message has been edited by Aspire (edited June 09, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Aspire (edited June 09, 2001).]

[SableCherub]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
SABLECHERUB: everyone has an opinion. Outsiders always have comments but have no idea of what they are commenting on because they really don't know. Any fraternal similarities with "hazing" and the military is strictly for building an "esprit d'corps", a sense of unity and purpose. Many of the principles of Kwanzaa, so to speak. Unless a people or organization are unified and of one accord, how do they carry out their purpose? I pledged old school and am damn proud of it. I pledged under the process designed and chaired by my Founders. I don't care what anyone says, I will take their way of molding a pledgee into a full-fledged member over the NPHC, lawyers, or GDIs any day.

as an "outsider" i may not be able to accurately guage the appropriateness of "greek" activities...but as someone that has "pledged" an organization very similar in structure...i do feel...in my opinion that i do have something very valid to offer to the conversation for those that are willing to open their minds...and similarly i am willing to correct anyone that wrongly attests knowledge of the miliatary when they have never been through training at least...or have never actually served...i say all that to say that PLEDGING and HAZING are two VERY different things and once people realize that, separate the two, and learn how to properly PLEDGE individuals...meaning take individuals through a process that is challenging but does not result in physical or mental HARM...as opposed to physical or mental CHALLENGE...ya'll should be alright...that's all i was saying...in my opinion doggystyle...

[This message has been edited by SableCherub (edited June 11, 2001).]

[Rain Man]

OK, I do have something to say on this topic:

Having PLEDGED a GLO, perhaps not an NPHC one, but one nonetheless, I can say this much:

While I understand the oldheads feelings on reinstating pledging over MIP, having been in numerous debates with NPHCers on the issue, the general consensus appears to be this:

The National bodies of the NPHC simply cannot afford to risk any more lawsuits or liability to their organizations by reinstating pledging. The hazing incidents and deaths both before AND AFTER 1990 makes that very clear.

Having said that, is there any solid study or research that correlates the quality of a sister/brother with the intake method, via pledging vs. MIP? I personally do not know of any, but if there has been one, please let me know, as I would love to read the findings.

Another thing, the problem I have seen with pledging is that it has been more of an excuse for members to exhort power and ego over prospectives and pledges than to mold them into better brothers. What I am proving as a potential brother if all I am doing for you is being your personal servant by serving you breakfast and giving you wake-up calls and being your personal ATM (I speak from firsthand experience BTW). Now I know that is not all it entails, but a lot of the "pledging" experience is not truly germane to the qualities I possess as a brother.

Granted, I have no problems with the memorizing and unity of items such as history, songs, chants, etc. or even marching in line and dressing alike to establish the solidarity of the line. Heck, I think that is a lot of fun and making the pledging experience memorable.

I believe in pledging with a PURPOSE (knowing your history, traditions, and culture while bonding with fellow sands and big brothers/sisters). But I think the problem comes when ig'nant "Bigs" or DPs, perverts the process with physical and mental abuse and power/ego trips. That destroys the process and trivializes the true purpose of pledging. And as long as there are brothers/sisters around with that mentality, pledging probably will not come back in it's truest form, and even that could risk a lawsuit that would bankrupt the org. And I know none of you would like that.

As it stands now, it has been speculated that at least one NPHC org will be extinct in the next 10 years. I would sacrifice the short-term pledging process for the long term existence of my organization.

Of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

RM

[SWEETAKA]

I think pledging not hazing is a very important part of the process. Attempting to deny those of that often causes anger and resentment on both sides of the spectrum. The term "hazing" has almost taken a ridiculous turn to be all-inclusive of anything--even looking at someone cross-eyed. I know that people will often go through great lengths to make certain they have the experiences of pledging--even if they have to go outside of the accepted circle to get it. People can say whatever they want about how things have changed but underneath, their belief system supports pledging and not MIP. Don't get me wrong, I love "all" of my Sorors no matter how they were made. It is often hard to get around the watchful eyes of those who are in control. All these issues should be discussed in the NPHC and some middle ground should be decided upon. However, as was already mentioned--there is a big difference between pledging and hazing. Undergound creates ghosts, posts and some grief. The greatest part is holding the line between the two counters--pledging or hazing.

[ENDROAD]

As a prospective and interest I feel very cheated and lost due to the ban on pledging.

Hazing is illegal and inhuman. However, as someone said earlier much is lost on the teaching of sisterhood/brotherhood if you don't go through.

As for the answer to your question from my prospective, No. Maybe 5 to 10 years ago before the new process. The orgs dare I say as humbly as possible SHOULD have gotten their members together then ,instead of making such an abrupt decision. I feel safe in calling the decision such because MEMBERS have.

They should have stopped intake and had a real mandatory pow wow with no BS allowed.