Why Haze!!

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

I've read most of the big threads on the first page and it seems there are two parties, one that sees the benefits of hazing and one that sees it as the end of the world.

Our school administration has been adamantly anti-hazing but the big chapters still do it because they know how crucial it is to a chapter's continued survival and success.

And by hazing, I mean a combination of putting someone in a physical/mental stressful situation (ie. lineups), and forcing pledges to adhere to a set of standards (a dress code, working on builds, cleaning the house/apartments, giving rides, etc.)

Just have to wonder now how your definitions as well as what you report as "on going" activities at UT match up with any of the following laws, regulations and results in TX:
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/eve...Memorandum.pdf
http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/gle...n-Summer05.pdf
http://www.stophazing.org/laws/tx_law.htm

[SEC_Rowdiez]

So am I supposed to sit around in a circle with a bunch of guys I dont know and play name games?

Or we supposed to go through extreme hardships together and learn to work as a team to make it through to the end.

You have to earn your way, just like you have to earn your way onto a football team, basketball team, etc.
I wonder how good the teams would be if you just let anyone on it? No, you have to cut the guys that cant do the pushups, running, hitting, etc.
Same with fraternities

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by SEC_Rowdiez

So am I supposed to sit around in a circle with a bunch of guys I dont know and play name games?

Or we supposed to go through extreme hardships together and learn to work as a team to make it through to the end.

You have to earn your way, just like you have to earn your way onto a football team, basketball team, etc.
I wonder how good the teams would be if you just let anyone on it? No, you have to cut the guys that cant do the pushups, running, hitting, etc.
Same with fraternities

Cmon man, no specifics on a public forum. We know that everything is voluntary but still. None of our chapters ever haze, you know that.

[LXAAlum]

Originally Posted by SEC_Rowdiez

I wonder how good the teams would be if you just let anyone on it? No, you have to cut the guys that cant do the pushups, running, hitting, etc.
Same with fraternities

Last I checked, fraternities did not have physical standards like the military does, nor should they not allow members with disabilities (your quote seems to indicate otherwise)...

If it's so important to you that you have to cut those that can't measure up, are your "brothers" "men" enough to advertise your hazing regimen? "Rush (GLO name here)! We'll beat the crap out of you!"

[cheerfulgreek]

Hazing is wrong. Period. What seriously forces people to accept inhuman and degrading rituals in order to belong to an organization? I don't think the punishment for hazing is severe enough. Those who are caught hazing, get off way too easily unless they lose civil suits, and even then it's the parents who do the paying. The system of hazing still has not been changed. I think in order to change it, and put an end to it, stiffer penalties have to be imposed when someone dies or is injured. I think hazers need to be sent to minimum security prisons where they would have to take mandatory courses in some kind of behavior control.

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Hazing is wrong. Period. What seriously forces people to accept inhuman and degrading rituals in order to belong to an organization? I don't think the punishment for hazing is severe enough. Those who are caught hazing, get off way too easily unless they lose civil suits, and even then it's the parents who do the paying. The system of hazing still has not been changed. I think in order to change it, and put an end to it, stiffer penalties have to be imposed when someone dies or is injured. I think hazers need to be sent to minimum security prisons where they would have to take mandatory courses in some kind of behavior control.

The problem is that "hazing" is so vague. It's a joke. "Hazing" can be practiced without degrading anyone or putting them in any danger. All this has already been mentioned, but based on your post I'm not sure if you read it. It's not a black and white issue. "But it's illegal blah blah". To that I say, "do you drink? are you 21? do you ever speed?". To that you might say, "but hazing is more dangerous"...well not necessarily. We could go on forever with this issue. There is no definitive answer.

[VandalSquirrel]

In the case of certain groups/systems, if these people need to be made into better individuals (through hazing methods per each org.) why are they getting bids in the first place? I wouldn't write a rec or bid a woman who didn't meet our standards, and what happens in the new member period and throughout membership should be polishing of qualities that already exist.

If I remember right, BigRedBeta said of men given bids by his chapter "we look for men who are Betas or hold Beta qualities, and may not know it" and I think that's an excellent way to find quality people and not deal with risk management or the university bringing sanctions.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

The problem is that "hazing" is so vague. It's a joke. "Hazing" can be practiced without degrading anyone or putting them in any danger. All this has already been mentioned, but based on your post I'm not sure if you read it. It's not a black and white issue. "But it's illegal blah blah". To that I say, "do you drink? are you 21? do you ever speed?". To that you might say, "but hazing is more dangerous"...well not necessarily. We could go on forever with this issue. There is no definitive answer.

I read some of it. I'm not sure if I repeated another post or not. I was just posting my opinion on the whole issue.
It's not a black and white issue? Uhmm, yes it is a black and white issue, and no it is not a joke. Hazing actually is an extraordinary activity, and when it happens too often, then it becomes perversely ordinary, and for those individuals who engage in it, grow desensitized to its inhumanity. We already know hazing can lead to death, and serious injury, as it has done every year since the 70s. It leads to death and serious injury when rituals bring out members innate propensity for violence. Also violent, aggressive members who act out toward pledges use them as scapegoats through which to vent their own frustrations. Now, binge drinking has become ritualistic in many universities. I think houses need to be more heavily supervised by responsible adults.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

The problem is that "hazing" is so vague. It's a joke. "Hazing" can be practiced without degrading anyone or putting them in any danger. All this has already been mentioned, but based on your post I'm not sure if you read it. It's not a black and white issue. "But it's illegal blah blah". To that I say, "do you drink? are you 21? do you ever speed?". To that you might say, "but hazing is more dangerous"...well not necessarily. We could go on forever with this issue. There is no definitive answer.

I understand your point. And as others have noted, I too have an issue when hazing acts are not clearly defined. However, if something is illegal, well duh, it is illegal.

If you are under 21 and caught drinking, you can go to jail. If you are caught speeding, you can be fined. You may loose your license. You might even end up in jail. Even if you have not really put yourself or anyone else in harms way. As such, my point is that you (the general you) are taking a risk when you do something illegal. Even if it may not seem to be harmful. And this is the reason that illegal hazing acts fall under Risk Management.

To be clear, I do not think that all so called hazing acts are illegal. But if a specific act has been defined as illegal by the State, or by the University, or by your HQ, or by your chapter, then it is simply illegal.

[RaggedyAnn]

My husband is part of a nonhazing chapter of TKE. He has been out of school for 15 years and is still tight with his brothers. We had a dozen of his brothers at our wedding and we take vacations together 3 times a year. Trust me, this is a chapter that does things right, has awesome alumni communication and gets money from their alum when they need it. He actually gets a newsletter that is around 8 pages 2-3 times a year.
You don't need to haze to have a strong brotherhood or sisterhood.

[SEC_Rowdiez]

i was talking about joining a football team....

my chapter doesnt haze anyways

[bowsandtoes]

If someone doesn't have the mental fortitude to deal with the small amount of stress induced by hazing, I probably don't want them in my chapter.

Membership in the organization is not free, you're going to have to work for it. Some people hear about 'hazing' and realize they may not want to be a part of the group that badly anymore. Things like serving dinner, cleaning the house, study hours, are just paying your dues. You have to contribute before you can join.

[PrettyBoy]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

If someone doesn't have the mental fortitude to deal with the small amount of stress induced by hazing, I probably don't want them in my chapter.

Membership in the organization is not free, you're going to have to work for it. Some people hear about 'hazing' and realize they may not want to be a part of the group that badly anymore. Things like serving dinner, cleaning the house, study hours, are just paying your dues. You have to contribute before you can join.

I agree with you 110% and I couldn't have said it better.

[DSTCHAOS]

The voluntary versus involuntary isn't a strong argument so the grey area isn't because of that.

99% of the hazing is technically voluntary, ranging from technically allowing someone to paddle you to allowing yourself to be "forced" to drink gallons of water or alcohol.

Even the alleged milder forms of hazing like scavenger hunts are voluntary but we all know that people do these things because they think they should. People who refuse to go through these things will be treated accordingly--and in most chapters that means that their experience will be made into a nightmare.

So voluntarily being hazed, enjoying some of the experiences, and thinking that what you went through is a reasonable rite of passage doesn't change anything. You were still hazed, based on many definitions, and what you experienced can always be taken to an extreme if placed in the wrong hands. That applies to the hazing of 50 years ago and the hazing of today.

The REAL grey area is that we know that some people are responsible and don't take power to the extreme so they aren't hoping to truly physically or mentally damage people (I acknowledge that "truly" is subjective). However, as I said before, the hazing laws exist because "some people" isn't enough insurance and people seeking membership have different physical and mental tolerance levels that aren't always considered. One pledge could do 300 pushups with ease and another not only can't but can end up in cardiac arrest because of it. Harmless or a "fluke" outcome of a hazing incident that justifies why hazing is illegal?

[SistaTruth]

I say, if you want to get hazed then that is your stupidity. If you believe that putting your hands on me is proof of sisterhood, then you are not the sister for me. After weeks of getting your behind whipped, the people over the lines wonder why their neos do not get along and they do not want to work together. It is your fault. I hope that one day, people will be smart and stop allowing other people to whip their behinds to be accepted.