Judge dismisses Wyoming KKG lawsuit

[carnation]

Women should get a boner-free sorority house, which they were not getting with Artemis around.

And does anyone feel like sisters who complained were totally ignored? "Oh, don't be silly, that's not even anything that should go to the honor court--you transphobic bitches."

[Phrozen Sands]

Originally Posted by carnation

Women should get a boner-free sorority house, which they were not getting with Artemis around.

And does anyone feel like sisters who complained were totally ignored? "Oh, don't be silly, that's not even anything that should go to the honor court--you transphobic bitches."

Lol!!!!

[Phrozen Sands]

Originally Posted by Zach

I read an article about Artemis when it was first put out there, and I don’t understand how she can question who she is. She got a hard on off of women in her sorority house or wherever they were living. There’s your answer Artemis. Your hard dick just told you who you are. I’ll bet if one of those girls wanted Artemis to hit it, I’ll bet she wouldn’t pass it up by saying “I don’t know. I don’t know who I am yet.”

I think she’s Bi, personally.

[honeychile]

I think *winter* and carnation get the Common Sense Award, with Zack winning the male division.

In reality, it's hard to believe that this is even under discussion. Only up to 1.7 percent of the population are intersex, but they need to be in a sorority, AND live in the house?

[TweedleDee199]

Hi. I'm going to chime in with the millenial perspective no one asked for. I know there are plenty of women who have devoted decades of service to their sororities and view acceptance of trans members as a seismic and incomprehensible change. I happened to grow up in a place where acceptance of trans people has been common place for a long time - but I have family members whose experiences and opinions are VERY different from mine. Something I've heard from them a lot is frustration that it feels like they can't have any conversation relating to inclusion of trans people because it just ends with them being yelled at rather than heard. That's completely justified- people should be able to have conversations without feeling talked down to or yelled at. On the other hand, I think a reason a lot of people my age and younger end up frustrated is that they feel like folks who are skeptical of including trans people in certain groups - sports teams, GLOs, etc. - often speak about trans people in an invasive way you just wouldn't speak about a non-trans person. I personally can't say I've ever seen another GC thread that spoke so candidly about a collegiate member's sex organs or speculated on their sexual orientation. I fully believe it's possible to have a civil conversation about how trans or non-binary members fit into GLOs but I would hope it could be done in a way that is respectful of particular individuals.

[*winter*]

Originally Posted by TweedleDee199

Hi. I'm going to chime in with the millenial perspective no one asked for. I know there are plenty of women who have devoted decades of service to their sororities and view acceptance of trans members as a seismic and incomprehensible change. I happened to grow up in a place where acceptance of trans people has been common place for a long time - but I have family members whose experiences and opinions are VERY different from mine. Something I've heard from them a lot is frustration that it feels like they can't have any conversation relating to inclusion of trans people because it just ends with them being yelled at rather than heard. That's completely justified- people should be able to have conversations without feeling talked down to or yelled at. On the other hand, I think a reason a lot of people my age and younger end up frustrated is that they feel like folks who are skeptical of including trans people in certain groups - sports teams, GLOs, etc. - often speak about trans people in an invasive way you just wouldn't speak about a non-trans person. I personally can't say I've ever seen another GC thread that spoke so candidly about a collegiate member's sex organs or speculated on their sexual orientation. I fully believe it's possible to have a civil conversation about how trans or non-binary members fit into GLOs but I would hope it could be done in a way that is respectful of particular individuals.

FWIW, I’m only three months away from being a millennial. I was raised around all kinds of people, including transgender people. I’m not exactly straight myself.

Just because someone doesn’t agree with the actions of a particular individual does not give anyone the right to just assume they’re some closed minded person who just fell off the back of a turnip truck.

Perhaps if people stopped collectively talking to “us” that way, they’d get further.

[FSUZeta]

Originally Posted by TweedleDee199

Hi. I'm going to chime in with the millenial perspective no one asked for. I know there are plenty of women who have devoted decades of service to their sororities and view acceptance of trans members as a seismic and incomprehensible change. I happened to grow up in a place where acceptance of trans people has been common place for a long time - but I have family members whose experiences and opinions are VERY different from mine. Something I've heard from them a lot is frustration that it feels like they can't have any conversation relating to inclusion of trans people because it just ends with them being yelled at rather than heard. That's completely justified- people should be able to have conversations without feeling talked down to or yelled at. On the other hand, I think a reason a lot of people my age and younger end up frustrated is that they feel like folks who are skeptical of including trans people in certain groups - sports teams, GLOs, etc. - often speak about trans people in an invasive way you just wouldn't speak about a non-trans person. I personally can't say I've ever seen another GC thread that spoke so candidly about a collegiate member's sex organs or speculated on their sexual orientation. I fully believe it's possible to have a civil conversation about how trans or non-binary members fit into GLOs but I would hope it could be done in a way that is respectful of particular individuals.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I guess for me extending membership to people with male genitalia is dissolving the single sex barrier sororities had up until recently. It doesn’t matter if they feel that they are women. Physically they are not. It’s the same with allowing males to compete on female sports teams. A mediocre male athlete still has a testosterone advantage despite taking female hormones, as proven by the UPenn swimmer. . How fair is that? Why is the NCAA willing to compromise the integrity of womens sports, and negate the chances of hundreds of female athletes success for a minute minority of athletes who couldn’t achieve greatness on the male side of the sport. And why is it that sorority leadership is willing to compromise the comfort and safety( as some of the KKG members expressed in the Artemis article) of its initiated members, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of alumna donations that are drying up, because of these new policies, which were decided on by a committee behind closed doors , not up for vote by the membership at large? These actions marginalize women. The first sororities founded in the Midwest were begun to offer friendship, support, and a haven of safety and comfort to women who were often not welcomed in a male dominated student body. Women need to stand for women first. It should not be “well, if you aren’t comfortable around Artemis or you feel that sororities should not extend membership to transgender people then there’s the door.” It should be, “I hear you sisters. Your feelings are important to us. Let’s take this under consideration and have the entire international membership decide.” But that’s not happening.

[carnation]

YES!!!! YES!!! HEAR HEAR!!!!!

[Phrozen Sands]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I guess for me extending membership to people with male genitalia is dissolving the single sex barrier sororities had up until recently. It doesn’t matter if they feel that they are women. Physically they are not. It’s the same with allowing males to compete on female sports teams. A mediocre male athlete still has a testosterone advantage despite taking female hormones, as proven by the UPenn swimmer. . How fair is that? Why is the NCAA willing to compromise the integrity of womens sports, and negate the chances of hundreds of female athletes success for a minute minority of athletes who couldn’t achieve greatness on the male side of the sport. And why is it that sorority leadership is willing to compromise the comfort and safety( as some of the KKG members expressed in the Artemis article) of its initiated members, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of alumna donations that are drying up, because of these new policies, which were decided on by a committee behind closed doors , not up for vote by the membership at large? These actions marginalize women. The first sororities founded in the Midwest were begun to offer friendship, support, and a haven of safety and comfort to women who were often not welcomed in a male dominated student body. Women need to stand for women first. It should not be “well, if you aren’t comfortable around Artemis or you feel that sororities should not extend membership to transgender people then there’s the door.” It should be, “I hear you sisters. Your feelings are important to us. Let’s take this under consideration and have the entire international membership decide.” But that’s not happening.

FSUZeta killed the entire thread with this response. Everybody put on your nuclear blast glasses.
https://youtube.com/shorts/8pztSupdQ...OzVvQTITNZZzCf

Edit: she dropped the bomb from the FSUZeta bomber plane, with honeychile as the pilot and carnation the copilot. They said “Drop that shit, FSUZeta!” Lol

[33girl]

Originally Posted by honeychile

In reality, it's hard to believe that this is even under discussion. Only up to 1.7 percent of the population are intersex, but they need to be in a sorority, AND live in the house?

Intersex and transgender are two completely different things. Intersex means (oversimplifying) you were born with genitalia that can have features of both biological sexes. That is nowhere near the issue here.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Intersex and transgender are two completely different things. Intersex means (oversimplifying) you were born with genitalia that can have features of both biological sexes. That is nowhere near the issue here.

The terminology has changed a lot over the years. Terms that were totally acceptable years ago aren't now and no one makes grand announcements when they change; you innocently use them one day and people go for the jugular. And a lot of people are demanding that everyone use their preferred vocab and that won't be happening.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Intersex and transgender are two completely different things. Intersex means (oversimplifying) you were born with genitalia that can have features of both biological sexes. That is nowhere near the issue here.

I stand corrected. I was doing my best to cover all bases without going through the whole alphabet LGBTQ+ bit.

[*winter*]

Originally Posted by carnation

Women should get a boner-free sorority house, which they were not getting with Artemis around.

And does anyone feel like sisters who complained were totally ignored? "Oh, don't be silly, that's not even anything that should go to the honor court--you transphobic bitches."

First line: Every time I think I’ve found f my favorite Carnation post, you manage to come through with a new favorite!

Second line: YES! We reach women to speak up, say something when you’re uncomfortable, etc and they did. But it’s like women just automatically CANNOT express discomfort if the person is transgender- and that’s not fair.

I’ve worked in social services settings for years and one of the things that is always preached is that all the people participating have the same rights- to be comfortable, feel safe, feel heard, etc. no one participant is more important than another. I think it is applicable to many group experiences and especially group living experiences.

Just because women in college (some, not all) want to date men and have access to those men (of their choosing) sometimes in their bedrooms does not mean they should have to be comfortable with this situation. That’s like saying that if a woman is heterosexual, she should be okay with weird, gross people catcalling her because she likes men anyway so what’s the problem?

[carnation]

Originally Posted by *winter*

Second line: YES! We reach women to speak up, say something when you’re uncomfortable, etc and they did. But it’s like women just automatically CANNOT express discomfort if the person is transgender- and that’s not fair

Exactly! Is there a woman alive who doesn't know what it feels like to always be on guard because of past experiences? My grandmother and my mother have both talked about how in their youth, men they knew and men they didn't would make random grabs, make unwelcome sexual comments, and so forth.

It's no different now except we get the message that we're supposed to shut up if a man transitions. We have the right to speak up without being shamed or ignored!