AOII Eliminates Legacy Policy

[knight_shadow]

I obviously have no dog in this fight, as I'm not in an NPC organization, but this:

Originally Posted by shadokat

if a chapter REALLY wants a certain woman or women, no matter what the legacy policy is, they'll find a way to get her.

stood out. If the legacy is great and everyone wants her and she'll be brought in anyway, why does the official policy change matter? You still get the PNM you want.

A lot of what I read in here sounds like an aversion to change rather than the signaling of impending doom (again, outsider's perspective). That said - if one of your few benefits as an alumna is the ability to bring in legacies, maybe there should be another conversation about more alumna benefits?

In my (much newer and smaller) organization, we are getting our first few rounds of legacies and even though we are "new enough to have room" so to speak, the "obligation" for bringing in legacies is more the exception than the rule. If someone is a legacy and his father cares *that* much, he's likely been around that chapter and has plans to attend the associated university, so it's a natural fit vs a checklist. If there was a change in policy about this, I can't imagine that my personal fraternal experience will be affected in any way.

[carnation]

The policy change matters because in almost all the NPCs, a legacy who comes to prefs is put on the first bid list. It would be really crappy to ask a legacy back all the way to prefs and then not give her a bid.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Cookiez17

So on the idea of introducing not just IFC/NPC orgs to people rushing, they did this at my old school during recruitment. The multicultural orgs would be there for the first night or two and then an individual would reach out if they had interest.

Sadly when someone asked "Oh what orgs are we visiting today?" a rho gamma stated that XYZ fraternity wasn't going to be there that night and I heard a "thank god" from a guy in the back .

On the other hand if a school has a Meet the Greeks sort of thing they usually will have all of the organizations show up and then the multicultural/NPHC orgs would usually do a stroll/step they had prepared, which would get the room extremely excited, including myself.

And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I obviously have no dog in this fight, as I'm not in an NPC organization, but this:



stood out. If the legacy is great and everyone wants her and she'll be brought in anyway, why does the official policy change matter? You still get the PNM you want.

A lot of what I read in here sounds like an aversion to change rather than the signaling of impending doom (again, outsider's perspective). That said - if one of your few benefits as an alumna is the ability to bring in legacies, maybe there should be another conversation about more alumna benefits?

In my (much newer and smaller) organization, we are getting our first few rounds of legacies and even though we are "new enough to have room" so to speak, the "obligation" for bringing in legacies is more the exception than the rule. If someone is a legacy and his father cares *that* much, he's likely been around that chapter and has plans to attend the associated university, so it's a natural fit vs a checklist. If there was a change in policy about this, I can't imagine that my personal fraternal experience will be affected in any way.

Spot on, as usual.

[Cookiez17]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.

Well for recruitment which basically served as rush they only gave an informational telling the history of their org and explaining to the PNMs what NPHC orgs are as a whole. The Meet The Greeks was a greek wide event and PNMs could go but it was only optional for those signing up for recruitment.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by carnation

The policy change matters because in almost all the NPCs, a legacy who comes to prefs is put on the first bid list. It would be really crappy to ask a legacy back all the way to prefs and then not give her a bid.

I don't know all of the terminology for your different rounds. Is pref the last round before bids are given out? If so, if she makes it that far and doesn't make the cut, doesn't that mean that there are others who the chapter thought would be a better fit than her? Are you saying it's better to fit a round peg into a square hole because of who her mother is?

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

And if I was an NPHC advisor, I would tell my students that they are not to perform steps and strolls at recruitment events, especially not in all-Greek events. That is not what we were founded for and it sends the wrong signal to everyone in the audience.

Yea, that might be the first step in inclusion - invite folks over for more than dancing LOL

[carnation]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I don't know all of the terminology for your different rounds. Is pref the last round before bids are given out? If so, if she makes it that far and doesn't make the cut, doesn't that mean that there are others who the chapter thought would be a better fit than her? Are you saying it's better to fit a round peg into a square hole because of who her mother is?

No. If the girl is a bad fit, she's unlikely to make it past early rounds. If she is a good fit, she is likely to go much further. Round pegs won't be making it into square holes at this point, it'll be square pegs and square holes.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by carnation

In a way, I have no dog in the fight because all 9 daughters are grown. But...your alum benefits and ours (and your organization and mine) are obviously not the same and please don't tell us what they should be like. There's really nothing else our organizations can do for us besides this.

Change in itself is NOT the issue. This legacy policy doesn't have a thing to do with diversity and is unlikely to affect anyone except faithful alums who have given years of service and money to their GLOs and now it won't count. I don't blame them for backing out.

I didn't tell you anything about what your org should or shouldn't do. But obviously your organizations have found a need to evolve, so if that evolution means a previous benefit is no more, then perhaps the benefit conversation needs to be had. If you don't think so, more power to y'all.

Originally Posted by carnation

No. If the girl is a bad fit, she's unlikely to make it past early rounds. If she is a good fit, she is likely to go much further. Round pegs won't be making it into square holes at this point, it'll be square pegs and square holes.

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just honestly trying to understand because it's not clear in my reading of this thread.

So she makes it far into the process, everyone likes her, and everyone wants her. Why would they cut her? If she's a great legacy who is a fit for the chapter wouldn't you rank her high enough to make sure she makes the cut?

Apologies if the terminology is off - trying to tap into my previous GC knowledge of these processes LOL

[carnation]

No, the thing is that a very small number of people think we need to evolve.

OK, say there are 5 rounds of recruitment (5 sets of parties). With most NPCs, a legacy would automatically get asked back to the second round. She could still be cut after 3rd or 4th round but if she was still in the running when the last set of parties (preferential parties/prefs) came around, most NPCs would put her at the top of the bid list with other legacies.

Each sorority has a different system by which their PNMs are scored (not going into that because it involves membership selection) but it is possible for a PNM to be liked very much by the members but not be on the first bid list just because of numbers.

[Sororitysock]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just honestly trying to understand because it's not clear in my reading of this thread.

So she makes it far into the process, everyone likes her, and everyone wants her. Why would they cut her? If she's a great legacy who is a fit for the chapter wouldn't you rank her high enough to make sure she makes the cut?

Apologies if the terminology is off - trying to tap into my previous GC knowledge of these processes LOL

Everyone who is invited to your preference (final) round has the potential to become your sister whether she's a legacy or not. If she doesn't initially get a space on your first bid list, she can end up with a bid if she ranks you #1 and you don't reach quota by the time you get to the end of your first bid list. Why don't you get to quota on the first pass on your bid list? Because some of those women may have ranked their other preference sorority as their #1 and they were on that sorority's first bid list. This is the "mutual selection" we talk about. The point is, you should only be inviting women to your preference round that you can see as a sister, because it's very possible that women who might not be comparably as desirable could end up on your bid list via the reason above or by playing by the rules so they make it as a quota addition. So if a sorority invites you to preference, they want you and that little perk of being a legacy puts her at the top of the bid list. If your bylaws change, I think it's cruel to invite a legacy back for preference with no intention of putting her on the first bid list.

I don't have a problem with dropping legacies who you know won't fit after the first round, but it's that dropping after preference that bothers me.

Some southern chapters have been dropping legacies after first round for several years; all with the blessing of the HQ. those are the chapters where the number of legacies rushing comes or even exceeds expected quota. Otherwise those chapters and pledge classes would be composed of all legacies.

Hopefully that makes sense. It's difficult to write about this without talking about membership selection.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by Sororitysock

I don't have a problem with dropping legacies who you know won't fit after the first round, but it's that dropping after preference that bothers me.

Some southern chapters have been dropping legacies after first round for several years; all with the blessing of the HQ. those are the chapters where the number of legacies rushing comes or even exceeds expected quota. Otherwise those chapters and pledge classes would be composed of all legacies.

^^^ All this!

[carnation]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I obviously have no dog in this fight, as I'm not in an NPC organization, but this:



stood out. If the legacy is great and everyone wants her and she'll be brought in anyway, why does the official policy change matter? You still get the PNM you want.

A lot of what I read in here sounds like an aversion to change rather than the signaling of impending doom (again, outsider's perspective). That said - if one of your few benefits as an alumna is the ability to bring in legacies, maybe there should be another conversation about more alumna benefits?

In my (much newer and smaller) organization, we are getting our first few rounds of legacies and even though we are "new enough to have room" so to speak, the "obligation" for bringing in legacies is more the exception than the rule. If someone is a legacy and his father cares *that* much, he's likely been around that chapter and has plans to attend the associated university, so it's a natural fit vs a checklist. If there was a change in policy about this, I can't imagine that my personal fraternal experience will be affected in any way.

In a way, I have no dog in the fight because all 9 daughters are grown. But...your alum benefits and ours (and your organization and mine) are obviously not the same and please don't tell us what they should be like. There's really nothing else our organizations can do for us besides this.

Change in itself is NOT the issue. This legacy policy doesn't have a thing to do with diversity and is unlikely to affect anyone except faithful alums who have given years of service and money to their GLOs and now it won't count. I don't blame them for backing out.